I can't see someone designing a system to work at 65F. First of all, most people would find 65F too cold for comfortable winter residency. MOST people prefer 70F-74F temps during winter. The older you get, that number climbs.

I have my latest manual J report back and i wanted to know if anyone could take a gander at it - I know that the infiltration numbers are estimates, as we have no blower door test completed, and cannot untill construction is done.

also - what would i need to provide to get an op/ cost comparison - as I have not been able to get this form any local contractor.

Thanks

Posted By DJV on 10 Feb 2012 12:19 PM
also - what would i need to provide to get an op/ cost comparison - as I have not been able to get this form any local contractor.

Thanks

You got a PM. Cost comparison to what. Natural gas, propane, oil, electric? What is your electric rate.

Came late - but reviewed the thread and picked up some serious red flags from the professional's side of the equation. Eight failed contractors is a start - especially in NJ. Granted there are not all that many good geo contractors and I count the regulars here as professional side of the business... but its statistically impossible to find eight out of eight geo contractors who can't satisfy a prospect.

How the client is approaching the geo professionals may be the cause. We're all for educating a client and I'll give a client a manual J every time - if he pays for it. Was that part of the initial contact? DJV is obviously very sophisticated but what could he have said for eight to walk? He's not asking questions any of us would fail to answer.

I also note he got a DX quote for $85 Grand. No way a five ton two true zone system all in costs $85,000. Unless there are very special circumstances. You can't even drill DX in NJ so it's a moot point anyway.

Regarding projected energy use... If DJV puts up the manual J with total annual BTU requirement we can easily deliver projections and comparisons for all fuel types. IME there are usually good reasons for sometimes being cautious.

Paul
TotalGreenUS.com

Geome,
There is a heating standard in areas governed by codes such as the IRC (international residential code). Generally speaking they will require something automatic (ruling out solid fuel as primary heating equipment) with the ability to heat occupied spaces to 68*, 5 feet off the floor.....or something like that.

So no we do not allow a customer to insist on a 65* design temp, nor do documents protect our reputation with consecutive owners of the home if they like higher set points than that. Further once we get customers off the expensive fuels we often find in follow up visits that the heat is so cheap they begin selecting higher set-points.

When it comes to design the customer is not always right nor the demands even legal.

If customers identify the dwelling as their forever home we discuss blood thinners and higher set-points for heating (into the mid 70's). Personnaly my default design temp is 70.

but what could he have said for eight to walk?

Did he say that eight walked?

It sounded to me like he was following through with the one he was liking and that guy walked.

Thanks IFC - no I never said 8 walked - I interviewed 8 contractors - here is my last email from my earthlinked quote when I questioned the 85 grand - he lowered it to almost 10 to make me happy.

DX is legal in NJ, you cannot drill, you have to trench.

Hi Dave,

My computer crashed I lost everything. So I had start from scratch on
your systems.
So here is what I come up with for the first floor.
SC-036-1B
AVY-036V
H5-036
CPS-3642
-----------------
$30,526.00

So here is what I come up with for the second floor.
SW-30-1B
AVY-030H
H5-030
CPS-1830
DWM-1836
----------------
$30,526.00

Parts and labor to due the job.
$14,448.00

So the total cost will be.
$75,500.00


Thanks
Harry

I read Joe's post on how to find a geo contractor and created an excel leveling sheet - to compare all contractors.

While I was creating this several columns would never be completed - such as providing a manual J report, a bin usage report, a cost - op comparison or even a parts / labor breakdown

now I know I might be particular, but it also took me 7 months to find the right contractor - as I am in the construction industry. I really feel most GC's just want you to pick the carpet and let them handle the rest - well I am sorry I am not like that - I needed to see prices for everything and to tell you the truth - when I did find the right GC we saved THOUSANDS - we we specific in what we wanted from windows to door locks etc.

Like i stated before it seems this is not the norm in general with additions/ renovations and thats tough - it's what I want and will not let just anyone come into my house and pick things I am paying for.

to all the HVAC contractors here - tell me - do most people just give you the reigns? or do you find yourself having to provide information to get a job? I feel that in my area information is far from adequate. Even parts and labor goes a long way for me as the second to last contractor was not willing to break things down for me - and when he did he showed he had almost 4 grand in for a tankless water heater ( list was 1200 ) this was not for installation or anything other then parts. Needless to say his quote was on the high side and that was one glaring area where it showed. I'm sorry but I will keep searching for an honest contractor or do things myself rather then get taken to the cleaners blindly.

guess this whole deal is stressful for me at this point - as construction is being delayed due to my geothermal situation.

$75K in Trenton, NJ?

How about 2 ductless mini splits and add a giant PV array with the $55,000 you will be saving. They could probably start putting them in tomorrow and be done in a couple days.

Posted By DJV on 12 Feb 2012 07:59 PM
Thanks IFC - no I never said 8 walked - I interviewed 8 contractors - here is my last email from my earthlinked quote when I questioned the 85 grand - he lowered it to almost 10 to make me happy.

DX is legal in NJ, you cannot drill, you have to trench.

Hi Dave,

My computer crashed I lost everything. So I had start from scratch on
your systems.
So here is what I come up with for the first floor.
SC-036-1B
AVY-036V
H5-036
CPS-3642
-----------------
$30,526.00

So here is what I come up with for the second floor.
SW-30-1B
AVY-030H
H5-030
CPS-1830
DWM-1836
----------------
$30,526.00

Parts and labor to due the job.
$14,448.00

So the total cost will be.
$75,500.00


Thanks
Harry

I read Joe's post on how to find a geo contractor and created an excel leveling sheet - to compare all contractors.

While I was creating this several columns would never be completed - such as providing a manual J report, a bin usage report, a cost - op comparison or even a parts / labor breakdown

now I know I might be particular, but it also took me 7 months to find the right contractor - as I am in the construction industry. I really feel most GC's just want you to pick the carpet and let them handle the rest - well I am sorry I am not like that - I needed to see prices for everything and to tell you the truth - when I did find the right GC we saved THOUSANDS - we we specific in what we wanted from windows to door locks etc.

Like i stated before it seems this is not the norm in general with additions/ renovations and thats tough - it's what I want and will not let just anyone come into my house and pick things I am paying for.

to all the HVAC contractors here - tell me - do most people just give you the reigns? or do you find yourself having to provide information to get a job? I feel that in my area information is far from adequate. Even parts and labor goes a long way for me as the second to last contractor was not willing to break things down for me - and when he did he showed he had almost 4 grand in for a tankless water heater ( list was 1200 ) this was not for installation or anything other then parts. Needless to say his quote was on the high side and that was one glaring area where it showed. I'm sorry but I will keep searching for an honest contractor or do things myself rather then get taken to the cleaners blindly.

guess this whole deal is stressful for me at this point - as construction is being delayed due to my geothermal situation.

Parts and labor is $14, 448???????????  What does the other 61 grand cover????  I have no idea what those part numbers are but $75 grand sounds crazy for just a 2 zone and desup!!
You seem to have edj yourself about geo mentioned several times of doing it yourself. The pros here have offered their help. Take it and do it yourself. You mentioned you already had the water side and ducting that you could line up. What were those costs?

I will not break things down because I don't know the gotchas from job to job. If a $20k project has $140 in it to run condensate lines, then I gotta listen to the argument that 10' of 3/4" PVC costs $2 at HoDepot - Never mind all the rest of the details.

Itemizing a bid invites a "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" negotiating nightmare. If I get word that I'm to be one of 8 bidders, then there will be no more than 7 bidders. If I haven't convinced a prospect of the value embodied in my package of goods and services, then I need to move on, preferably quickly.

I don't know what you mean Curt. Gotchas? You mean the unforseen that we were supposed to forsee (with our crystal balls) because we're the experts. That we're supposed to pay for out of our huge profit margin (after we line item everything at a "fair" price).

I kinda let the 8 estimates thing fly, though I agree I likely wouldn't throw my hat in the ring. Educated shopping is one thing 8 estimates suggests micromanagement.

That may be why the experienced guy suddenly discovered a full plate.

Not suggesting this is true of OP, but the thread title is even a little reactionary. It suggests wild contractors and bids but fails to deliver. Siskel and Ebert give it thumbs down.

I never itemize the costs on my bid. I will itemize what is included, but the cost is always lump sum.

There are very few homeowners so unreasonable that they can't allow for actual "gotchas" that occur during the course of work. What they don't want to pay for is unrealistic and lazy estimating, intentional padding or lowball, pump-up-the cost later techniques.

And, we all remember the homeowner who argued over the price of a simple condensate system, but what they really want to hear is that it is real and that they have to have it done right.

One of the best ways to learn more about your craft is to actually take place in bid competitions. One just so rarely finds a contractor who is actually at the pinnacle of everything and has nothing to learn, even if it is just how to operate more efficiently.

Posted By geodean on 13 Feb 2012 09:20 AM
I never itemize the costs on my bid. I will itemize what is included, but the cost is always lump sum.

A quote for anything should always show what is included.  It does not have to show itemized cost.  I have seen fixed-price contracts for building a home that did not show what was included - just referred to a set of plans.  Did it include landscaping, driveway, septic tank, etc.  Who knows?  And that contract was from a builder with at least 20 years of experience.  He is still in business although he has been to court a few times because he asked for more money after the homes were finished.

In regards to the title - yes it's a bit misleading, it's really not that wild and crazy over here, more of an attention getter to get you guys to read and help me out...lol

During my search of contractors not one will supply me with information - thats my biggest reason for looking at more contractors then necessary.

Had contractor's 1 & 2 done this and 3 supplied a report, cost breakdown actually anything more then a flat number at the bottom I would not be here leaning on you guys for information.

( and I really understand that you need to make a profit - I am usually on the other side of the fence in industrial HVAC with the company I work with )

I flat out stated I need more information to make an educated decision, I also stated I wanted breakdowns and understand that profits are a part of it ( i dont want anything for free trust me !)
Not one would provide this information and here I am.

I am still on the fence going with a conventional AC / furnace setup to aviod this as the conventional contractor has provided everything I asked - Costs for parts / labor and didnt bow out because of it.

It's a shame because in all my research the GEO setup would work out nicely for me.

We do not itemize costs, We do however provide a complete man j report with operating cost summary.

Posted By heatoftheearth on 13 Feb 2012 09:46 AM
We do not itemize costs, We do however provide a complete man j report with operating cost summary.

That would be a great starting point around here - ( 2 out of 3 aint bad!!)

We itemize our estimates, so everyone sees where the costs go. Each item has a detailed description. We itemize loopfield, heatpump, desuperheater, aux heater, tanks, softstart kit, flowcenter, ductwork or radiant, misc material (such as pipes, fittings ports etc), and detailed labor ( x amount of hours at x amout of $). Usually the estimate is about 2 pages of detailed description and pricing. I usually do a manula J and simple give them the results ( x amount of BTU/H at 0 degrees F). Based on that we tell them what size we would put in. Very rarely customers ask me for a more detailed analysis, and then I gladly give it to them.


This way the customer sees and understands what is involved, where the costs are, and that you do not cut a corner. Most customers understand that we go an extra mile to make them happy, and that is what costs money, but it also keeps you in the business (happy customers). Those who do not understand this are great customers for our competitors.

I don't want folks to think we have hostile relationships with customers. Quite the opposite is true. I'm simply not going to tell them how to manage their business to pay for geo and I'm disinterested in business coaching from armchair contractors.

With our doityourself arm of the biz, and the installation company, we do offer design to turnkey, so pricing is pretty transparent. I do not mark up subs, so the loop price per ton or allowances for electrical and plumbing are often offered as an oppurtunity for sweat equity.

With boiler and furnace sales, we are quite a bit less transparent. People spending 2 to 8K on retrofits do not seem to feel the same entitlement to itemization.

My contracts are 1 page on letterhead. Multipage docs for one of our competitors is an oppurtunity to hide details in plain sight.
Our exclusions or possible extras are highlighted in yellow ink.

While I'm not criticising meticulous contracts, it is not my style and if demanded I'm probably not your guy. In case some of you don't know, many are self-employed because they are mavericks or good builders, that is not the same as an MBA.