Lawsuits? Seriously? Who is afraid here: icfhybrid or you?

Posted By toddm on 08 Apr 2012 08:15 PM
Lawsuits? Seriously? Who is afraid here: icfhybrid or you?

We'll all know when questions are answered, or not.  Won't we? 

Posted By toddm on 07 Apr 2012 02:32 PM
You'd think that regulars on a site devoted to innovation could think outside the box.... In distribution by low speed continuous circulation, there's no need for return ducts or open doors. You do need a supertight, well insulated envelope. Joe likes to describe this approach as my pet project, but I believe I have just described hvac in a passivehaus design, minus the heat pump. Don't bet the farm on super efficient GSHP, docjenser. What minisplits have that GSHP units don't is mass production driving prices down. I fail to see how making geo even more expensive aids the cause.

My in the box thinking represents a well balanced distribution systems, your out of the box thinking has no supply or returns going into individual rooms. The problem with passive houses is that us humans want to live in them. So we take up oxygen, emit CO2, exhaust humidity, which then is liked by other critters. For example the growth of molds is CO2 and humidity dependent (besides temperature).
Yes, prices will likely go up with new, more efficient equipment. But that is well justified if it adds value. If you come to market with a heatpump which saves $100-200, why should you not be allowed to charge $1000 more for it? Either the market will accept it because it adds so much or it will reject it because it costs too much. Welcome to the USA!

When will this thread die? It is getting pretty old!

Actually my approach draws air off the great room in four locations and distributes it through six inch ductwork to every other room in the house, except for two closets. In a separate six-inch duct system with power-open dampers, an ERV exhausts both bathrooms and the kitchen on demand, and -- on a timer -- the great room through the four returns above. Additionally, I'll have a merv 12 filter in front of the lowspeed fan circulating air through the house. If you read up on low-speed continuous circulation, you'd see that it addresses the noise, wind chill and airborne irritant drawbacks of forced air quite effectively.

Posted By johnny1720 on 09 Apr 2012 08:10 AM
When will this thread die?

Maybe when the dhpvangelicals gather their flock of tens of thousands
of "remarkably satisfied" disciples and launch a forum of their own?

...or not,

Looby

Posted By johnny1720 on 09 Apr 2012 08:10 AM
When will this thread die? It is getting pretty old!

Hopefully sooner than later....

Dana, you are correct the table did not support my point. I should have quoted the "study (and all it's many pages)" not the table. The "study" makes the point very well that the thrust of the project is mainly replacing existing resistance baseboards or other unducted delivery products.

Todd, you have to understand that those of us who operate professionally are obliged to follow the codes that govern our AO. Your system would not qualify here, ignoring that and accusing us of not thinking outside the box is......well what would you call it? I'm really not trying to insult you. Do you think a real world contractor could get a customer to sign a "take what you get" contract? Would you sign one?

I agree this topic has run far afield, comparing ductless to ducted anything is silly. We've all agreed both technologies have a place so what are we arguing about.
I'll contribute one last note to mods to make a ASHP forum, but I will not contribute to this thread again.

Please make it die here and start a Mini-Split forum or find a general green forum to blather endlessly on and on. There are always many ways to heat/cool a home, but to take just about every other thread here (GEO forum) and tout the advantages of mini-splits is just getting too much to bear. Please already. Its a great technology for specific apps, no doubt, but is no equal to the overall comfort a central system provides on an typical US home. That comfort comes at a cost for sure, and that can be evaluated, but most will not put mini-splits in their main home.

Premium inverter technology models will likely be standard for Geo and ducted air source in the years to come. Those will work well combined with local zone control to give good distrubution on modest to larger size homes. COPs will go up accordingly. These systems will likely be the next "Premium Green" system where nat. gas in not avail on the typical US home.

The goal of the NW Ductless Heat Pump Initiative was never to make ductless a total solution in a retrofit, but rather for the utilities to be able buy "negawatt" capacity by DISplacing (and not REplacing) resistance heating load (a significant annual peak-load factor in that region) in lieu of more expensive new peak generating capacity.

It should come as no surprise that it's not a total-solution for most simple-retrofits where no upgrading of the building envelope is involved, and there is no INTENT to make it a complete solution.  That doesn't say anything about whether & when it CAN be made a complete solution- it's simply beyond the scope and intent of that program.

As for the stated satisfaction, curiously Looby opts to ignore the "PARTICIPANT SATISFACTION WITH DHP" figure at the bottom of p. 59, (p. A-8 in the appendix).

http://neea.org/research/reports/E11-229_combined.pdf

According to the actual satisfaction data (as opposed to Looby's interpretation of the other factors cited) more than 90% were satisfied with heating mode performance, and over 70% were VERY satisfied. 

This does not support an  executive summary of "DHP reduces the cost of shivering.", unless the reported facts in the document don't matter, as they apparently don't, to Looby. YMMV.

In cooling mode there were similar levels of satisfaction if we can interpret the 21% of "don't know" responses as "don't have enough of a cooling load to really care" in the satisfied column.  Among those who cared about cooling performance it's still overwhelmingly "satisfied" or "very satisfied", as were those who cared about the effect on power bills.

Fewer than 4% of the participants were dissatisfied or very-dissatisfied with any aspect of the system.

Executive summary: The overwhelming preponderance of participants in the  NW Ductless Heat Pump Initiative were satisfied with the performance of their ductless systems, even as a partial solution.

If there is anything in my hvac that violates code it isn't apparent to me or my BI. That it is well outside the comfort zone of your friendly neighborhood hvac mechanic is not the same as saying it can't be done, or that the math doesn't exist to design it. Passive solar high mass complicates my house, which is why it's been up for a year and I am still ironing out hvac based on experience. One suspects that a small, tight, well insulated house with modest glass could be conditioned reliably in the tried and true neighborhood hvac mechanic fashion -- oversize everything -- and still be light on capital and operating costs.

There are always many ways to heat/cool a home, but to take just about every other thread here (GEO forum) and tout the advantages of mini-splits is just getting too much to bear.

Chris, have you forgotten how this thread was started? It was with a one-sided critique of air source heat pumps, an image of a frozen-up outdoor compressor and misleading innuendo about how they operate in cold humid climates. That is going to draw a discussion every time.

No one "owns" one forum or another and GBT does not exist to provide anyone an insulated little home within which to spread misinformation. As long as posters like docjenser choose to start threads like he did on this one, there will be discussion about the relative merits of different systems. The bickering is only introduced by a small number of posters who seem to have a perennial chip on their shoulder. Personally, I've changed my mind about having a separate forum. After seeing how a number of the geo sellers view this, I don't want to see a place where you think you "own" one backyard or another. It's pretty clear that it will lead to all sorts of stinkbombs being tossed over the fence.

Dunno, maybe someone was just looking to get schooled again on cold, humid climates in areas other than their own.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Apr 2012 11:16 PM

how do minisplits handle those rooms?

I draw my HRV exhaust from those rooms anyway. That gets them "handled".

That's how it's being handled on the deep energy retrofit project I've been advising on.   The modeled max delta-T at outside design temp with the bedroom doors closed 24hours/day is less than 5F.  Doors-open it's much lower.  So 70F in the common space guarantees 65F+ in the bedrooms under all conditions. That has yet to be demonstrated as it's still under construction, but would be consistent with experience.

But this also is not a dumb retrofit-ductless onto a 1960s/70s code-min building, as are likely well-represented in the Northwest Ductless project.  The building will end up with ~R40 whole-wall R, and with only one U0.18 window per doored-off room.  (So, if it get's super-cold during the cold-snap of the century out one MIGHT need to keep the door open to allow better convection with the fully conditioned space for awhile or plug in the $50 space heater). Most mid-sized 1960s/70s code-min houses in the PNW could be reasonably handled with 2 & 3 head multi-splits with well thought out head placement.

If you're hard-corps (like Marc Rosenbaum) and tolerant of bigger than 5F room-to-room delta-Ts at the extremes, you can even do a 2-story house with a 1-head mini-split, if the R-values and windows are decent.