This is a rerun but it bears repeating. Most of the technologies covered by this site lack economies of scale, which is to say there isn't enough work in most markets to gin up competition, lower prices, and by weeding the ranks, improve quality of service. You want a contractor with dozens if not scores of installations under his or her belt. Building officials know best but many are barred from making recommendations. Rephrasing might help: "If I looked at the building permits for the last five years, which geo contractor would I find to be the busiest?" Related trades, like electricians and plumbers, may know the players, as do builders. If a major builder in your area does geo right along -- a good sign -- find out who he uses. As Joe Ami says, hvac contractors require licenses in most states. You may be able to find basic histories and complaint records there. If your research tells you geo (or icf or sips) are rare in your part of the world, decline to be a pioneer.

I have propane.  How would that help?

I think you're comparing apples to oranges.  There's a difference between a bad meal (cost maybe $50) and your HVAC system, which cost me at the time over $21,000.  I hardly think anyone's reaction would be comparable in the two circumstances.  And I didn't start complaining 16 years later, I started when I first learned of my situation after 7 years.

Yes, I did select the brand.  I didn't expect Water Furnace to send me to a Climate Master dealer, I expected him to send me to another Water Furnace dealer, and there were others in the area, so he could have done it.  As you said, I should have picked the dealer/installer with the best experience/reputation.  But I didn't know anyone else who had ever done geothermal here to ask for a recommendation.  I went with the dealer referred to me by WF, and when my gut told me to go to someone else, WF told me that he was their best and to stick with him.  Am I going to question someone who knows all the area dealers well, when I don't know any of them?  I trusted WF to steer me in the right direction, they're the ones with the expertise and knowledge of their dealers, they're the ones who have trained them.

Sorry, I don't buy your logic, and I doubt others do, either.

When I've sacrificed things I could have enjoyed on a daily basis for years to afford this system, I want all the savings advertised - I don't want any money that could have justified my decision to go geothermal over conventional going to repairs that should never have had to be made, but were, because my system was installed completely wrong.  Call me greedy, but that's how I feel.

You continue to mix up Waterfurnace and your installer. All what WF does is deliver a heat pump unit and they warranty that and stand behind it. WF did not design your system, they did not choose the pump, they did not install a single stage pump instead of a dual stage, they did not put the PVC pipe in, and they did not select your piping size and your circulation pump.
Your new installer might be loosing hours over hours trying to figure out what is wrong with your system, and you still being unhappy because other issues might surface from an incompetent install, I would shy away too since I could not guarantee you that your problem will be fixed with the measures taken. All here know that it might be more effort fixing and troubleshooting an old system than just starting from scratch.
I was trying to give you the analogy with the cooking: The supplier (WF) can deliver the best ingredients, if the cook (your installer) screws up the meal, it is not the suppliers fault when the customer is not satisfied. This principle does not change, wether it is about $50 or $21000.
Don't get me wrong, you have all reasons not to be happy and to demand a system performing as advertised. But you have the contract with the installer,not WF. But to go on the internet and to badmouth a supplier who's only "fault" was to recommend you one of his installers (which you had asked them to do), and now to go as far as speculating, without any proof, that WF pulled back you new installer, and is actually torpedoing your, is not the right way.

Well, I think it is common for consumers to have an expectation that manufacturers will vett their chosen dealers. The ones that want to be "reputable" anyway. Once a consumer gets what they see as a "recommendation" regarding a particular installer, that expectation, reasonably, or unreasonably, becomes set in stone. If the installer has problems or shortcomings and is unable or unwilling to correct them is when the consumer starts to look for a more responsive party.

ditto what ICF said. Ok pros......WITH would WF send a customer(with their product) to CM dealer in the first place?????? How would they even 'know' about that dealer?? It sounds like there were WF dealers in the area but even WF didn't recommend them?? If this is the case.....something is really screwed up there.

The point was that if you inquire to WF for an installer, they will send you to their installer, wether it is the one with the best track record or not. What do you expect from, them? Please keep also in mind, this all happened 16 years ago. I agree, WF with their business model, where they require a minimum training from all their dealer, and thus endorse their dealers, is prone to create issues with customers who think now the design and execution of the work is backed up by the manufacturer. It is not, they just supply the material to the contractor. That what it comes down to, same as with every other installation, wether it is windows, electric plumbing etc. Because of their training requirements, WF installers tend to cause lesser issues. But there are exceptions, as we all know.

The allusion or expectation is that if the WF is refferring dealers, they are committed to only refferring qualified ones.
Eric

Certainly we don't want you to feel picked on Madcow, but you have a little bit of an emotional stake in this that may cloud your decision making and interfere with your description of the problem.
Your latest description suggests a technician was confused as you only had one pump for two units and you wanted him back........you only need one pump for 2 units. You don't want that tech back.
You suggest you want to go to propane because of this ticking time bomb.........that has saved you thousands over and above the repair costs- meaning your new furnace will cost you more than the geo + repairs. NOthing is repair free and your repair bills broken down over the time frame are about $250/yr. While not great, if you compare that to the savings............

I suggest you go to the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association (IGSHPA) and look for certified drillers (not just loop installers) in your area. Drillers often do flow centers and indoor piping but seldom sell heat pumps. So they have probably done more indoor pipe than any "geo company" and won't try to sell you a new unit if you don't need it. They will also have a sense of the geo contractor that does the most volume in your area or who has good prices and customer relations.

Water furnace will offer enough help to determine that their equipment is not the problem. If it is installation issues they will do nothing for you. At the end of the day WF's customer is the dealer and that's where their allegience lies. Does it and should it call into question their designation of a company as a "master installer" or a "super-duper dealer"?

Yes

Posted By joe.ami on 24 Aug 2012 08:45 AM
Drillers often do flow centers and indoor piping but seldom sell heat pumps. So they have probably done more indoor pipe than any "geo company" and won't try to sell you a new unit if you don't need it. They will also have a sense of the geo contractor that does the most volume in your area or who has good prices and customer relations.

At the end of the day WF's customer is the dealer and that's where their allegience lies. Does it and should it call into question their designation of a company as a "master installer" or a "super-duper dealer"?

Yes

Joe, maybe I'm not reading this right.  In he first paragraph you mention that high volume is a good thing.  Isn't high volume needed to become a WF GeoPro Master Dealer?

Did MadCow state that the dealer was a GeoPro Master Dealer?

Not sure I get the question.
I was suggesting a good source to determine the real geo pros in the area would be the drillers as OP still doesn't have competent service advice. Someone suggested the inspectors and that's dubious at best (we just had an inspector called for a loop pressure test put a "final approved" sticker on the old furnace).

Second regarding the responsibility of WF to the end customer because they recommend a contractor, I simply think they open the can of worms with their endorsements as would any company.

You're not comparing apples to apples here.  The most expensive meal one is likely to have might run $100 or so.  I'm talking about a fiasco that cost hundreds times that and continually affects the enjoyment and value of my home.  One's reaction to a bad meal, versus a bungled major household investment are two different things entirely.

At the time I made my decision, I didn't know anyone else anywhere doing geothermal, so had no one to ask for references.  There was no Yellow Pages listing for geothermal (I know, I looked).  Yes, I picked WF, but it would had been the same if I had picked another manufacturer, I would have had to rely on them to point me to a good dealer.

My argument is that I had bad vibes from the beginning with this guy, and called and asked for someone else.  Likely if I had been given another dealer, I wouldn't be out the money I'm out today.  But I was told by their territory manager, the one who knows all of the area dealers best, to stick with this one.

Honestly, what would you have done under the circumstances?

I'm certainly not knocking every decision you've made up to now, just trying to offer advice from a dispassionate perspective.
While folks do come here to vent, the pros here generally try to aide in the purchase or repair of a system.
If your desire is to ask for advice on where to go from here with the equipment, I would have you consider what I already suggested which is geo saved you thousands over propane and still will.
I don't know that you are sitting on a "time bomb" because I don't know that you have had competant advice yet (I also suggested a resource for that).

If you want us to suggest you go after a manufacturer, I suggest you use those resources to fix your equipment.

Sometimes bad things happen to good folks, but I would encourage you to remember you are still money ahead and not make a brash decision that will cost you more to condition your home forever.

Posted By geome on 24 Aug 2012 09:17 AM
In he first paragraph you mention that high volume is a good thing.  Isn't high volume needed to become a WF GeoPro Master Dealer?

Forgot to address this. Volume often demonstrates success in a craft, but I suggested well drillers who won't be snowed by marketing companies who use a variety of subs (something came up about one of those).

If we measure by volume of sales alone, then The Big Orange Store must be a master plumber.

I think dealer designations from the manufacturer suggest endorsement. So if a manufacturer were to base that on sales alone they should probably rethink that. To my knowledge WF requires dealer training as well, is additional training not part of being a "geopro master dealer?"

WF requires training, the new 7 series they will not ship to you unless yiu went to the training, so they are better in that aspect than other manufactures, and I have seen them pulling the plug on a bad installer. Geopro master is only by volume.

Posted By docjenser on 26 Aug 2012 01:13 AM
WF requires training, the new 7 series they will not ship to you unless yiu went to the training, so they are better in that aspect than other manufactures, and I have seen them pulling the plug on a bad installer. Geopro master is only by volume.

I think "Geopro Master" implies technical competance, not salesmanship. Does WF identify the difference to shoppers?
No wonder people are always P.O.'d at WF.

The title is "GeoPro Master Dealer".  I think of "dealer" as being sales related (like a car dealer), and a master dealer as having higher volume than non-master dealers.  Generally speaking, volume and experience go hand in hand, as was mentioned with high volume drillers.

Still not sure why we are discussing the "GeoPro Master Dealer" since the OP didn't mention that this system was installed by one.

Posted By MadCow on 25 Aug 2012 04:10 PM
You're not comparing apples to apples here.  The most expensive meal one is likely to have might run $100 or so.  I'm talking about a fiasco that cost hundreds times that and continually affects the enjoyment and value of my home.  One's reaction to a bad meal, versus a bungled major household investment are two different things entirely.

I agree with Doc's comparison.  WF did not install your system.  They only supplied the ingredients and the installer was the chef.  In this comparison, cost is irrelevant.

Posted By MadCow on 25 Aug 2012 04:10 PM
At the time I made my decision, I didn't know anyone else anywhere doing geothermal, so had no one to ask for references.

Did you ask for references from this installer?  Did you check them out?  What were the results?

Posted By MadCow on 25 Aug 2012 04:10 PM
My argument is that I had bad vibes from the beginning with this guy, and called and asked for someone else.  Likely if I had been given another dealer, I wouldn't be out the money I'm out today.  But I was told by their territory manager, the one who knows all of the area dealers best, to stick with this one.

Honestly, what would you have done under the circumstances?

I'm sorry, but you're acting as if you didn't have a choice and you were forced to sign on the dotted line.  We have all made bad decisions.  Unfortunately, 16 years later is too late to take legal action which may have been appropriate earlier.

I am not unsympathetic, but I just don't agree with all of your arguments.  That said, as a result of your installer you have had a troublesome system and may not have received the equipment you paid for.  WF is a good company.  Respond to them and maybe they can do something  that you will be pleased with (perhaps some middle ground.)  Please report back with your results.

Geome if you notice originally i used the term "master installer" and "superduper.....". My point is what the dealers are called doesn't matter. The implication is superiority and it is offered by WF. If a manufacturer does that they can expect backlash when things go south.

IMO, manufacturers should survey customers after installation and publish the summarized results without analysis or judgement. Then it is clearer - "this is the data we have - make your own decision".