Many complains about WF here are really sourced by the dealer endorsement with their dealer direct sales infrastructure. Wf is one of the best manufacturers out there, with one of the best products. Most issues brought up around here are design issue, or bad installations. For everyone who reads this, follow the shoppers checklist posted here! #1 on every list is the reputation and experience of the installer. Everything else is secondary! You simply cannot have a good meal if the cook is bad and screwing things up!

Posted By jonr on 28 Aug 2012 11:03 AM
IMO, manufacturers should survey customers after installation and publish the summarized results without analysis or judgement. Then it is clearer - "this is the data we have - make your own decision".

Everyone forgets that contractors are the target customer of the manufacturers. While they take notice if there are frequent vocal complaints, they really have no leverage over a dealer and their only resource is to "fire" a customer. A "master dealer" or whatever the hell they're called, if based on volume is not someone a manufacturer wants to do away with.
They are not interested in who end consumers like best, they are most interested in who buys more of their product.

Yep - manufactures coddle and reward those that move the most boxes, not those who do the best job reducing clients' energy bills.

It is a classic case of interests aligned at cross-purposes.

Someone is forgetting that brand name reputation as seen by the customer is a major factor in the sales of a particular brand. A middleman (the contractor) doesn't change that. And manufactures have a big resource other than "firing" - margins. A contractor that generates lots of rave reviews is worth more than one that has just OK reviews. The OK contractor should be retained but encouraged to improve.

Posted By jonr on 04 Sep 2012 08:14 AM
Someone is forgetting that brand name reputation as seen by the customer is a major factor in the sales of a particular brand. A middleman (the contractor) doesn't change that. And manufactures have a big resource other than "firing" - margins. A contractor that generates lots of rave reviews is worth more than one that has just OK reviews. The OK contractor should be retained but encouraged to improve.

Curiously the company that is most "in your face" around here and seems to have the most brand recognition is not #1 in the resi. Geo biz.
That same company seems to have more complaints due to customer expectation as they "qualify" or endorse their dealers.
CM who has 50% of the resi biz and growing does little reaching out to the end user by comparison.

They are business models.

When I asked a corporate VP about on-line sales policy recently; he was not interested in business model, nor did he put limits on content I could borrow from their sites or use of pictures and name. I was simply told- "don't embarass me".

I'm sorry but no matter how upside down consumers percieve it, you are not the target customer of Bosch, Climatemaster or Waterfurnace.......I am (and I don't even have one in my home).

Consumers: knowing that manufacturers aren't going to make 100% certain that you get a competant installer, then you better do it.

www.climatemaster.com devotes 1/3 of their home page to home owners. Click on that and you get "find a dealer". Same as WF.

I give WF major credit for participating here. Hopefully their dealer vetting program is now just as willing to make customer support the priority.

In my experiance te only vetting that WF is interested in doing is pulling franchises if you can not meet growth goals. CM has all but driven WF out of my OA and the platinum WF dealer in my OA just picked up the bosch line to be price compettive with CM and let WF go by the way side.
Eric

Posted By MadCow on 17 Aug 2012 04:38 PM

The line to the upstairs unit collapsed and had to be replaced with PVC pipe in order for the system to work.  I learn later that PVC is subject to leaks, which means I am also sitting on a time bomb.  In the meantime, several other service calls to keep it working.

... $1200 his crew replaces my pump kit, the flow center, and changes all of the PVC connected to the flow center with different material.
geothermal forums as possible, it will give others pause and something to think about when they decide which company to work with.

It is? Most the the pipes in my basement are PVC pipes, including the pipes to and from my WaterFurnace. I've haven't hand any issues with them in the last 5 years I owned my house. from what I read, PVC piped have a very low failure rate and are expected to last at least 100 years based on the rate of chemical breakdown.  I'm curious where you got the idea PVC pipes are subject to leaks. Also I'm curious by what you mean the line to the unit collapsed, did someone step on it?
   

"I'm curious where you got the idea PVC pipes are subject to leaks."

PVC is not popular for closed loop geo like Madcow's system. EWT and LWT temperatures can get extreme for PVC. It is fine for open loop.

Hmm, kind of think of it, all the hot water pipes are copper.

PVC pipes are weak where they are glued together, especially when they are exposed to such changing temperatures as in geo pipes. We had a few of them burst, ezpecially in older pressurized systems. For the last 5 years we are doing HDPE all the way to the heat pump, and go non-pressurized.

In the Dallas area predominantly the HDPE pipe is run all the way to the unit (no PVC or rubber hoses) and the loop is pressurized.

Best regards,

Bill