I have had a ClimateMaster system installed for 18 months. During that time it has had 2 TXV valves replaced and a refrigerant line leak near the TXV. The system has never seemed to lower my electric bills the way it was suppose to nor does it seem to match the energy usage I read about. I have read this forum before and EWT is discussed quite a bit. But I have never seen anyone with numbers like the ones I recorded below. I have taken readings multiple times and these are not out of the ordinary. These readings were taken in August. It seems the higher the EWT the less efficient the unit based on what I have read. But what is causing my EWT to be high. If I have posted this in the wrong place I apologize. If someone would just point me at the right forum I would appreciate it. I put data in attachment so it would format correctly.

Okay, it would help to know where you are located and if running non stop for 1.5 hours is typical.

Is your member name "AZ-gshp" AZ for Arizona? Could be part of the reason for high ground loop temps.

Yes, I do live in AZ, but it is Northern AZ. Much different than Phoenix. This may help.
HDD days at Base 65 is 4865.
CDD days at Base 65 is 655.
Running for 1.5 hours non-stop is not the norm. But running for 30 minutes is very normal and the largest increase in EWT by far was first 30 minutes. Thanks for looking at this. I will try to provide anything you ask for.

I just read joe.ami instructions for this forum. So here is some data he said would help.



The Performance Bin report from WrightSoft said to expect 2584 kWh in Cooling.



The year prior to the install for the cooling months I used 5100 kWh using a 13 SEER ArcoAire



I have 2 years of Cooling data comparing the same months and the average use is 6569 kWh (this is with the GSHP)

> But what is causing my EWT to be high.

Your boreholes aren't working well with that many btus. Do you know the pressure drop across them? What grout was used?

It's unfortunate that it wasn't properly tested at installation time.

Well I do and I don't. I was just the client and trusted the dealer. Since a series of problems with the unit I started trying to educate myself.
There were 5 holes and the tubing showed up with two tubes connected to a joint like a 'U'. There were 5 of these also and one stuffed
into each hole. I remember one did not go in all the way and they said the hole had colasped, "no big deal" they said and cut the pipe off.



They then ran one side of each of the loops to a connection point. From there they ran 1.5" HDPE to the flow center.



The other end each loop was ran to a connection point and 1 1.5" pipe from there to flow center. Other side
of flow center had two more connection that went to unit.



They used bags of something mixed with lots of sand. It was poured into the each hole, they came back
often to top off the holes.

Not sure I know the pressure, I will look for it.

I took these pictures inside the lower compartment. There was no insulation on any of this tubing, but signs of melted insulation. I do not know if this helps.

Was the grouting done like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr6tS-UOrNQ

No, the video shows them stuffing a pipe to the bottom of the hole and filling it from bottom up. The driller that did mine mixed the sand and
bags of stuff (the bags looked the size and shape of those in the video but I do not know what was in them) in a big mixer like you
would concrete. Then he poured it in from the top, sometimes I would see them carry a 5 gallon bucket of the mixture to the hole and dump it
in.

I didn't get the pictures attached correctly above so I attached them again. Please look at them as it just looks like something is wrong inside the unit.

I may be able to help, at least to provide perspective, as I have a geo system with an attached (actually whole house) energy monitoring system, and thus can show to you some actual data that may be applicable for you.

Your EWT will fundamentally be determined by how fast your geo system's air-to-refrigerant subsystem removes heat from your home versus how fast your geo system's refrigerant-to-water-loop subsystem is capable of dumping the heat into the earth.  It's that simple.

For example, I have 2 (WaterFurnace) geo units using a common (no antifreeze) loop; the 5 ton unit removes heat from my residence at about 52 kBTU/hr and the 3 ton at about 30 kBTU/hr ( LoopKBTUperHr ).

Yesterday, my system ran 47% of the day (678 minutes), removing a total of 438 KBTUs for the 24 hr day ( DailyGroundLoopHeatTransfer ).

On an instantaneous basis, my borehole field (8 holes, 300' deep, 1" HDPE, normal grout, heavy clay soil) cannot 'digest' at the same pace the amount of heat being dumped into it.  Thus, EWT has to rise while my units are running.  Then, at night, there's mostly EWT recovery, as heat in the earth moves away from the loop pipe while the geo units are sitting idle.

For example, yesterday EWT started at 75 (°F).  Late in the day EWT got up to a high of 82°, an increase of 7° ( InstantaneousEnteringWaterTempsEWT ).  And then by the morning of the next day, EWT is almost back to 75°.

I say 'almost' because in fact my earth loop field is not sized to accommodate a full day's amount of heat absorption.  At the moment EWT is starting each day at 7° warmer than 'deep earth' temp (68°) for my location.  It won't be until the Fall season when there's minimal need for cooling will the EWT return to around to 68°.  During this time heat continues to move away from the loop field while the geo units sit idle.

What I wonder is perhaps your loop field is undersized (or not functioning properly).  I.e., you're trying to dump way more heat into the earth than the loop field can instantaneously absorb.

Geodean published back in '09 a summary of good loop field design.  It said, in part:
* Geo heat pumps work efficiently with EWT to 90° in the summer.
* A closed loop that is designed with the idea to keep install costs low will approach 90° towards the end of the cooling season in a cooling dominate area.
* A closed loop that swings 20° above and below the deep earth temp (I.e. a 40° swing) is a properly designed loop.

Here's a 13 month summary of the average daily EWT for my loop: EnteringWaterTemperatureDailyAvg , illustrating what an oversized loop looks like.

In your case I'll bet a long term picture would show your EWT with a much wider highest point in the summer to lowest point in the winter swing, to the point perhaps of adverse (non-efficient) operation.  If so, you'll need to focus attention on how to reduce down the amount of heat needed to be pulled out of your home.  I.e., removal of incandescent lamps, turning off heat generating things, relaxing tstat settings, shading of windows, making the structure more air tight, increasing insulation, putting in radiant barrier, optimizing ductwork performance and its insulation, planting trees to shade your home, etc.

For reference and comparison purposes: I live in the Dallas area.  It's hot here right now - about 680 CDD for last month (Aug.) ( DailyGroundLoopHeatTransfer ); yesterday it was 22 CDD ( DD ), with a low at 76° and a high at 101° ( SampledOutsideWeather ).

Hope this help.

Best regards,

Bill

The construction of your boreholes was botched. Don't expect them to perform well even if everything else is OK.

The borehole grout (mixture of sand and cement or bentonite typically) should have been pumped down to the bottom of the hole using a pump and a tremie pipe and the hole filled from the bottom to the top with the grout. That is the only way to insure you have no voids. Voids are like insulation. If you have many voids in your borehole grout, then you aren't getting the proper heat transfer.

Did they hit water when drilling the holes? I'm guessing not based on location and system performance.

No, no water was hit. It appears based on the posts that people are starting to believe that the grouting of the bore holes is the issue.

But no one has suggested the solution if that is indeed the case. Is there anyway to confirm this theory? I have absolutely no reason to doubt the expert opinions I have received on this forum. In fact I believe them to be accurate.

I am just trying to figure out how I need to approach the dealer, because you can imagine the resistance I will get.

Any advise with these concerns/questions will be greatly appreciated.

And again thank you to all that have replied.

Look at what Bill Neukranz said above. His EWT varied by 7 degrees in a 24 hour period. And it started out very close to me starting value. If that is what one would expect then my issue is serious.

My EWT went up 8.3 degrees in just 30 minutes. In 90 minutes it rose 23.8 degrees. Maybe this is just another way of confirming what you all are telling me.......bad loop field install.

Bill Neukranz, what product did you use to get all that wonderful data and charts. Is it something I could buy (at a reasonable price for a home owner) and attach to my unit?

>no one has suggested the solution if that is indeed the case.

If so, you can add more boreholes to get more heat exchange capability. Or add some air source heat pumps to your house and run your geothermal system at lower average output.

Exact pressure drop across the loops (asked for above) helps in determining proper flow in each borehole.

If the installer is reputable, he should step up and fix the problem.

Thank you to all that replied, your help and insight is appreciated.

How are you measuring the flow?

Are you sure the loops are purged of air/debris?