I assume you were in southern Italy.  Where I am in the north (Milan), insulation is a big deal.  I would equate the climate here to be about the same as Louisville, KY.  Normal methodology is about 4" of rockwool or foam between an inner and outer layer of brick, with stucco on the outside and plaster (cement or gypsum) on the inside. 

It is normal to plaster directly to the concrete slab for the ceiling.  Any air conditioning is usually done with mini splits, so no duct space requirements.  Electrical distribution in Italy is typically done in a 4" fill screed under the floor finish.  If radiant heating is used, it goes in a separate screed, so there could be a 4" screed for radiant and a 4" screed for electrical/plumbing distribution ON TOP of a structural slab.  My company is building some tall residential buildings here and the Italians still wanted to use a double screed on top of the structural slab (we are not doing it that way).  Imagine a building made twice as heavy! 

In the USA, we use caulk (wide paint) to correct problems.  In Europe, they just slap some mortar over it.

What components are you doing in modular?  I have just read an article about more and more custom home builders using modular/prefabricated components.

Bruce

I'm looking out my office window in Manhattan. What do I see? Half a dozen wooden water towers. If wood and water are so problematic, why are all the water towers wood? It seems to me the right type of wood, prepared in the right manner will be just fine.

want to build, I guess we could build everything out of cypress. I think it might get expensive, though! So we've got water solved - but what about that fire problem?

And in the northeast US;

wood in termite prone areas is a bad idea

Question:
Have any of you devised a way to create a panelized version using the best of ICF along with maybe a light weight concrete ( sandwich ? ) along with the ability to install systems easier such as wiring , plumbing vents, etc. ?

Terrymod ...Yes indeed!!! Check out Video.google.com. Search ISOMAX FORCHUNGSHAUS III. (If you need help with the German PM me).

Yes to answer your question.

We use steel framed panels with Foam insulation and HArdie Board Panels on both sides.  The panels are light weight, strong, energy efficient, mold, mildew and insect free.

The electrical chases are pre cut through the foam walls. 

JohnCarl

[email protected]

Chris

You have to provide the appraiser with the proof of the energy efficiency before they will give you Superior Ratings, because they are placing their licenses on the line.

My Appraisals all came back

Energy Efficiency-Superior

Construction---Superior

and @ most importantly 20%-30%  higher than stick and block construction in the area.

JohnCarl

[email protected]

That was random?

This site is like a cheap classified ads paper, I feel sorry for the do-it-yourself crowd that routinely gets a sales pitch rather than a straight answer.
Fact is, as long as consumers can get average performance or better from wood frame, ICF and SIP's dont stand a chance. I think that is where this attitude from SIP and ICF people comes from, frustration that they cant sell their "high performance" products. If ICFConstruction had a bigger market share this thread wouldn't exist. Obviously there are better ways to promote what you believe.

That being said wood is good. It's easy to work with and easily modified for future needs. Problem is, it suffers from installation errors from contractors that do and contractors that dont know any better. There are alot of OLD colonials on the east coast, and I live in a 100 year old house that doesnt have a bit of rot anywhere. How? I take care of it. Was it leaky and costly to operate when I bought it? Yes, however by air sealing and remodeling it costs less to operate than many new homes, I know this based on data provided by my utility.

I posted so those reading that aren't in the business of contracting dont get too caught up in ridiculous generalizations and fear mongering. Wood is just fine, and armed with a competent contractor, is just as "green" if not more "green" as anything else. It's all about design and layout.

greentree;

The interest for alternative building methods is consumer driven. Home building technology has not advanced as fast as other industries.
It takes a real leap of faith for builders to pioneer new methods, better, stonger, cleaner,more efficient construction have been developed to meet the needs of the consumer thru methods other than bricks & sticks.
If consumers are not interested in newer green technology, they won't be drawn to this site.
The neighborhood"Joe Builder" is still available to provde the same old same old
But for those interested in something better, the forum provides a wealth of information

I know a builder in AZ that built a whole sub-division about 8 years ago using Premier SIPS panels. As I understand, they sold well. He was about 25 miles from the factory.

02/14/2009 4:07 PM Quote Reply
"This site is like a cheap classified ads paper, I feel sorry for the do-it-yourself crowd that routinely gets a sales pitch rather than a straight answer."

"Fact is, as long as consumers can get average performance or better from wood frame, ICF and SIP's dont stand a chance"

Greentree

Please wake up and smell the coffee! Do not misunderstand..Wood is good...just not as a load bearing exterior wall. It is however, (after one opens the first strapped bundle) great for building rocking chairs (although some pieces won't even burn straight in the fireplace...and give the term "tootsie roll" a new meaning). It is also very green (as it used to be a tree not so long ago).

Hmmm...wonder what your definition of "Avarage proformance" is... There is a Trailer court not far from here...and even those are not built out of wood....

Regarding your comment "cheap classified ads" - don't feel sorry for the "do it yourself crowd"; as they are here to examine "other methods" (be it ICF, SIP, Strawbale or other alternative methods) to the "Conventional" building methods!

Chris K. has stated this well:

"The interest for alternative building methods is consumer driven. Home building technology has not advanced as fast as other industries.
It takes a real leap of faith for builders to pioneer new methods, better, stonger, cleaner,more efficient construction have been developed to meet the needs of the consumer thru methods other than bricks & sticks "

Chris,
It seems that consumers aren't interested because the only ones on this site are self serving dealers of products. Yea it takes a leap of faith and so far you're drowning. Thing is, I'll build either. There has been alot of building science change in the last decade as far as information and products to build better details and tighten the home up. A lot of problems regarding wood frame is building tight half way causing moisture issues.

Donner,
You're really missing the point here. You tell the consumer to wake up, not a builder who is participating on these forums. I'm all for discussing better methods and new technologies, that's why I'm here, but when I see a discussion titled "wood is no good" it raises a red flag, why? Because it's an asinine title. And enough with the twisted lumber comments, if you're a builder and putting that in your walls good for you, my product looks better than yours. Obviously we order more lumber and send back more lumber. You can put an 8 foot straight edge anywhere you want and can't slip a weak eighth shim behind it, it's called a hand planer. By the way, my definition of average performance is energy star qualified and obviously you aren't aware that most mobile homes contain lumber. Based on the fact that the only worthwhile thing you said in your post was a quote of Chris K's comment, you shouldn't even be posting here, you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

How many people have opened up exterior wood walls on homes, raise your hand, and how many walls have you opened up? Please post what you have found.

I'll start. I've opened up over 75 so far in my career, homes from over 100 years old to brand new. I've opened the wood walls from the outside and the inside clad in brick, fiber, vinyl, cement, T-111 and stucco commercial and residential. Of all the walls I've found issues in 5. 4 would have non-existent if flashing would have been installed as it should have (obvious omissions), 1 was EIFS stucco with a gypsum exterior board that most know is a poor system. All the others where dry with no visible damage or presense of moisture at any time in the past. These buildings were all built at various times by various people making the sample random.

I think the biggest failure in wood building systems is air infiltration. ICF's and SIPS are great at reduced air infiltration by the nature of their design and are more forgiving to those with less experience.

greentree, if the discussion of "alternative" building methods raises your blood pressure then you're probably in the wrong forum. It's ironic though that a non-wood method could be called alternative. Most other countries stopped building with wood in the Middle Ages.

I wouldnt call this a discussion, rather some sort of odd "make yourself feel better" posting by ICF only people.

I concur - you have to sift through a LOT of shameless product promotion to get anything of any value on this site. It's irritating as heck.

'Most other countries stopped building with wood in the Middle Ages.' Hmm - odd comment. The reason why they did so? It sure wasn't because they invented ICF's! LOL! Older civilizations built with whatever product was readily available. England/Ireland/etc. Lots of stone - not too much lumber. Hey, let's build with stone!

US - tradition has been to build with lumber - most abundant available natural resource. Guess what - it's still a great way to build. Not conventional framing, but advanced framing, Larsen Truss walls, SIP, etc. What I can't get past is the ICF crowd constantly tooting their horn. Yes, it's a good technology - on my home, I'll be building at least an ICF basement, and possibly the shell as well. BUT - there are other systems that are just as good - and in certain climates, probably better. Deal with it.

Thank you, there is somebody else on here that would prefer balanced DISCUSSION.

If you ICF and some of you SIP guys keep it up I'll start an "ICF is no good" and a "SIPS are no good" thread filled with misleading statements so you can see first hand some of the garbage you are putting out, then when you try to dispute any of my points I'll just make up emotion based statements to dispute you and brash generalizations. So knock it off, you're only hurting yourselves.

Not much lumber in Europe? That's rich. Most all of Europe was built with wood. It all burned down hundreds of years ago. They learned their lesson and switched to something more permanent.

"You tell the consumer to wake up, not a builder who is participating on these forums."

Greentree; I was actually hoping that YOU would wake up. Most builders and consumers which visit and became members of GBT already have.

"Obviously we order more lumber and send back more lumber"

I have yet to send back 1 single ICF block. If wood is sooo good - than why do you send it back???

"How many people have opened up exterior wood walls on homes"

Can't say that I have. We have ; however demolished 12 wooden buildings (correction 9...the other 3 were demolished for us by tornados).

"I've opened up over 75 so far in my career... Of all the walls I've found issues in 5"

Correct me if I'm wrong. That's 1 in 15 (your stats - not mine)! Must be conforting to know - for those still considering building with stick. And your point concerning to topic of this Thread is?????