Agreed, I didn't suggest geo except in comparison to a variable speed mini-split.

I've been quoted $7200 - $8000 for a full-sized 3 ton variable speed minisplit and three or four indoor units, so a small compressor and a single can't be much.

What is the comparison? I mean, how little can the geo console units cost with respect to that.

The bulk of your heat loss is from the glass. Assuming it's all ~U0.30-ish, maybe 0.40 ish for the slider and a design temp of +5F, interior temp of 70F, the heat loss out the 120 square feet of window is ~2350 BTU/hr, and out the ~45' of slider is ~1100BTU/hr- call it 3500BTU/hr for all of the glass combined. Even if you doubled that to make up for the rest, including air infiltration assuming yours is the leakiest slider on earth you're still well under 10KBTU/hr, and a 1-ton "Mr. Slim" (Mitsubishi Hyper-Heating) or similar mini-split would get you there. The top section of this list are all good picks:

http://www.goingductless.com/2011%20Preferred%20Product%20List%20_Final.pdf

In these parts it'll run you ~ $3500 or so installed price. There's some evidence that you'll get a bit better low-temp efficiency out of the small Fujitsu's than the small Mitsubishi, (see: http://neea.org/research/reports/E11-225-DHP-Lab-Testing.pdf ) but they're both is pretty good (as is support for either, in eastern MA.) Going for the 3/4 ton or smaller models only takes a hundred or two off the installed price, and there's good evidence that the variable-speed compressors operate more efficiently at their low to mid-speed, so oversizing it by even a factor of 3 or more for the peak load doesn't cut into heating-mode efficiency, and with all that glass you may need that much cooling-AC if you get any afternoon sun on W facing glass. With a 1-ton you'd be good down to -10F or so in that room- no need for auxilliary or backup heating.

ICFHybrid: The geo consoles aren't too expensive, but the rest of the system would be ridiculous, if doing it for only one room. With geo there's a lot more design risk to it- every installation is custom, and time to design a half-ton system isn't 1/8 of what it takes to design a 4 ton system. Mini-splits are cookie-cutter canned-systems, and the primary design issues are related to the heat loss vs. output capacity at design temperatures. In Burlington MA it rarely drops below positive single-digits F for temp, and the mean January temps are where better mini-splits will be hitting 2.7-2.8 for a mid-compressor-speed COP, and the rest of the winter in 3.0 territory or higher (depending on compressor speed.) But at 5F, running the compressor at full speed you'd be doing well to hit 2.0 (but that's only 1% of the heating season hours.) Given that the average geo system is sub 3.0 in this area (when pumping + air handler power is factored in) it's hard to make the rationale for geo.

Yes, the best geo systems can easily beat a mini-split's seasonal performance but at 4x the cost, the delta in performance has no payoff. I've yet to see any geo systems come in under $15K in my neighborhood- I'd assume the absolute floor might be in the $10-12K range for something really tiny with no drilling necessary. But how long would it take to make up the $8K+ delta between a mini-split with a seasonal COP of 2.6 compared to a tiny geo with a whole-system COP of 3.4 on something that's using less than $400 in electricity/year with a mini-split? With a pretty-good geo system you might save $100/year, but not a lot more. With bigger loads, colder outdoor temps, more zones, the rationale for geo has more traction, but even at 3 tons in US zones 5 or lower, without subsidy it can be pretty tough to make the case (especially where electricity is cheap, unlike most of MA.)

Dana. As always over and above. Thanx
If the mini split costs 400/yr to run for heat and ac
How much would it be just to heat w/baseboard from my 1952 boiler?

Steve

Posted By padrino01803 on 18 Aug 2011 05:52 PM
Dana. As always over and above. Thanx
If the mini split costs 400/yr to run for heat and ac
How much would it be just to heat w/baseboard from my 1952 boiler?

Steve

Sorry for the confusion- I wasn't calculating $400/year to heat your room with a mini-split, that was targeted toward a 2.5-3 ton multi-split type option. 

I don't remember exactly what the current electric rates are in Burlington MA (my office is there, but somebody else handles the billing.)  But for the sake of argument let's say it's 18 cents/kwh. With a resistance heater that would deliver 3412BTU to the room for 18cents but for a mini-split averaging a COP of 2.5 that would be 2.5 x 3412 or ~8500 BTU for 18 cents.

An early- 1950s vintage boiler might be 75% efficient if it's been well maintained and is controlled with an economizer type unit such as the Intellicon HW+ or comparable rather than aquastats, but otherwise it's probably 65-75% efficient, assuming 2-3x oversizing.  But for the sake of argument let's call it 75%.

So out of a gallon of oil you get 0.75 x 138,000= 103,500 BTUs

That's the heat-equivalent of 103,500/8500= 12kwh of electricity used in a mini-split, which cost you only 12 x $0.18= $2.16

So, heating with mini-split would be like burning $2.16 oil in your existing boiler.  Oil prices haven't been that low in MA since 2002.

Do you want to come over And look at the space and right up some quotes?

I'm not in the HVAC biz- there's nothing to quote.

Given that you're heating with oil, it might be a decent investment to go with a 2 ton multi- rather than a 1-ton for just that room. If the main house has a fairly open floor plan 1-2 heads/zones in the main house could handle the bulk of the heating load. Keeping the boiler as the backup when it's really cold, since at 0F or lower it's operating cost is comparable to that of a mini-split, as the COP is already below 2. At -10F the boiler will be cheaper to run than the mini-split (assuming $3 oil, 18cent electricity.)

Get some quotes on adding a zone to the boiler- if somebody will do it for well under a grand it might be the right thing to do. But if you're thinking mini-split, think multi-, since the installation of more heads adds only $1200-1500/head (sometimes less), and the difference in base installed price for the compressor isn't huge between a 1 ton and a 2 or 2.5 ton. (The 3-ton 4-head for $8000 in ICFHybrid's example may be a bit on the low side for eastern MA pricing though, but maybe not.)   The air-conditioning aspects of mini-splits are also quite nice during the humid-sticky summer days too, something you'll never get from a baseboard heating zone.  (Many mini-splits have a "dehumidify" mode too.)

BTW: I'm confusing myself with 3 different conversations about mini-split projects (only 1 of which is here), and the clarification in my previous post is a mis-statement. I was in fact referring to a minimalist geo vs. a minimalist mini-split, but the power use numbers were arbitrary, and unrelated to heating your addition. (A project I'm dealing with in WA is slated for a 2-ton Mitsubishi, and is expected to use ~$750-800/year at 10cents kwh, so I was mentally pulling numbers out of the air extrapolating down to what a reasonably loaded 1-ton might use. Different climate, different electricity rate, different load.)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Aug 2011 02:10 PM

Agreed, I didn't suggest geo except in comparison to a variable speed mini-split.

I've been quoted $7200 - $8000 for a full-sized 3 ton variable speed minisplit and three or four indoor units, so a small compressor and a single can't be much.

What is the comparison? I mean, how little can the geo console units cost with respect to that.

We are both shooting in the dark here. We don't know what OP would pay for a vari mini split installed (we've seen large price fluctuations based on geography) but I know the price for a small vari mini split is about the same as a geo-console making the major difference the ground loops vs minisplit's lineset. If open loop it is a no brainer. Closed loop would need very little ghex.
If tax credit or utility rebates are available, geo would likely be the better pick. If they are not available it still might be a better pick.

Once again my suggestion was not geo, but it bears looking at if OP is willing to pay for a variable minisplit. I don't see any reason to spend near so much on a heat plant for this room. Especially if one was already willing to make it a 3 season room, all electric console (depending on price/kwh) offers the lowest installation cost and may heat for less than oil.
j

I see resistance electric baseboards and the like in use heating whole houses still, here in in the land of 15-22cents/kwh too, but the payback on a R410A heat pump technology is short-years in those homes!

One of my in-laws has a near-ideal place for trenching in some geo (it's practically bottomless topsoil and the water table is never more than 5' below the surface of his large back yard), yet he continues to bay $6K/year to heat his modestly-sized cape-style house with 20 cent electricity. He has natural gas service to the house too (that he uses ONLY for cooking- go figure!) I've shown him the numbers on a few options, but you can't push a string...

There are significant subsidies, even up to $25K zero interest seven year loans available in MA to encourage conversion to more efficient technology, so between the 30% federal tax credit for geo and the zero interest loan, geo isn't out of the question for getting padrino1803 away from dependence on the oil truck, should that seem desirable. I don't expect electricity pricing to ramp nearly as quickly as oil over the next 10 years, and a decent geo system would cut the heating costs by at least a third relative to current oil prices, even at 20cents/kwh. But it's a big commitment.

Lower commitment, less cash outlay, but anybody in MA can get a $500 rebate for decent mini-splits:

http://www.masssave.com/~/media/Files/Residential/Applications%20and%20Rebate%20Forms/CS%20MA%20Customer%20Rebate%20form%202011%20%20X.ashx?ext=pdf

(That doesn't mean you HAVE to use it primarily for heating, just 'cuz the incentive was set up with that presumption, eh? ;-) )

If padrino1803 doesn't have central air conditioning in the place a multi-split could be worth it for the AC alone, and a 2-3 head 2-ton multi- could take the bulk of the load off the boiler for most of the year.

but I know the price for a small vari mini split is about the same as a geo-console making the major difference the ground loops vs minisplit's lineset

I'm sorry; I'm not following you. You can buy a 9K minisplit for as little as $600-$700. A single zone 24,000 BTU LG goes for about a grand and a half. Line sets are a couple hundred bucks, if that. Installation is less than a day.

I don't think geo compares with that. Maybe you should explain what the cost of installing a geo console might be for a homeowner and how it compares.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 20 Aug 2011 12:21 AM

but I know the price for a small vari mini split is about the same as a geo-console making the major difference the ground loops vs minisplit's lineset

I'm sorry; I'm not following you. You can buy a 9K minisplit for as little as $600-$700. A single zone 24,000 BTU LG goes for about a grand and a half. Line sets are a couple hundred bucks, if that. Installation is less than a day.

I don't think geo compares with that. Maybe you should explain what the cost of installing a geo console might be for a homeowner and how it compares.

I don't understand what you are not following: a small geo console is loosely a couple thousand bucks. Making the biggest difference the loop minus the lineset. I don't know what people in OP's neighborhood charge to sell/install/warranty the stuff, but I do know that geo often qualifies for subsidies other technologies do not (another point you don't seem to follow).

I said things like "possible" and "might" meaning it bears a look if OP decides to look at either technology. You continue to belabor the point based on an unfounded assumption that geo will cost significantly more ("I don't think geo compares with that").....what if it qualifies for more subsidies than the price difference? What if the price difference is modest and the geo has a lower operating cost? What if the local geo guy is an old pro with streamlined op that charges less than new vari mini-split dealer (new dealers often charge more until they become comfortable with a product)? 

Again not knowing what people will charge for the equipment installed in OPs area (both are premium products rarely sold by low-bid companies) we are both shooting in the dark. This is why I continue to suggest it be looked at but don't definatively state it's the best fit. What part of "worth a look" is so very hard to follow?

Again, neither technology was my first pick. Isn't soliciting bids from different contractors offering different products and solutions how most folks determine the best fit for their needs and budget?

I guess it is I that am not following you. Maybe you should explain why we should exclude geo from consideration without pricing it first. 

What if the price difference is modest and the geo has a lower operating cost?

What if? LOL

You seem to have some knowledge of geo, maybe you could lay out a reasonable cost for installing a "geo console" so we can get some idea of whether or not is really should be under consideration here?

How much would it be just to heat w/baseboard from my 1952 boiler?

What do you pay per gallon for heating oil and what is your electricity cost per kWh?

padrino01803, I would look at not just heating the new room but heating the whole house. Your old system is likely to have enough excess capacity to heat the new room, but some type of heat pump for the whole house should have a reasonable payback. Or use natural gas if it is available. In other words, I'd either upgrade the entire system or just use the old one.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 20 Aug 2011 11:48 AM

What if the price difference is modest and the geo has a lower operating cost?

What if? LOL

You seem to have some knowledge of geo, maybe you could lay out a reasonable cost for installing a "geo console" so we can get some idea of whether or not is really should be under consideration here?

I believe I've laid out (repeatedly) what I know of the prices and suggested (repeatedly) that it should not automatically be discarded from consideration.

You on the other hand are becomming shrill in suggesting geo should be discarded without pricing because You "think" it will cost more.

Did geo dip your hair in the inkwell in high school or something? Do you simply have an axe to grind with me?....

Or is it possible you really think the best advice is to make decisions without the foundation of research?

(BTW not all research can be done here, you can ask a thousand times more but I still don't know what they charge for a 1/2 ton loop in padrino's neighborhood.)
j

I believe I've laid out (repeatedly) what I know of the prices ...

I'm sorry; I must have missed that the first time around. ;-)

Is that where you say "A geo console may cost about the same as a variable speed minisplit (not talkin thousand dollar mr slim here) with loop perhaps $1,000."?

...I still don't know what they charge for a 1/2 ton loop in padrino's neighborhood.)
j

You seem to know something about this, so maybe you can help us out by telling us what they charge for a "1/2 ton loop" in YOUR neighborhood.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Aug 2011 09:09 AM

I believe I've laid out (repeatedly) what I know of the prices ...

I'm sorry; I must have missed that the first time around. ;-)

Is that where you say "A geo console may cost about the same as a variable speed minisplit (not talkin thousand dollar mr slim here) with loop perhaps $1,000."?

Apparently you did catch the first time around: you simply missed the second and third (hence "repeatedly"):

2) "but I know the price for a small vari mini split is about the same as a geo-console making the major difference the ground loops vs minisplit's lineset"

3) "a small geo console is loosely a couple thousand bucks"

and you continue to miss the point that more rebates/credits are often available to geo products reducing net price.

But let's review (repeat) the real question;

Can you please explain to me what is so flawed in my following (repeated) assertion that it has unleashed a multipost, multiday tirade from you?:

(paraphrased) "I don't think vari-minis are a good fit but if you are going to look at them you may as well price geo as well."

Since both are not a good fit, in my opinion, it has always been a theoretical debate in which I suggest shopping and comparing while you imply research is a bad idea based on your assumed numbers.

If that makes you smile and wink, have at it.
 

My questions hardly constitute a "multiday tirade". We are just trying to use your expertise to get a rough idea of the costs, and your representations have been hard to reconcile, not the least of which is the two above in which you say that a geo console with loop is "perhaps $1,000.", then later you say that a small geo console (alone) is "loosely a couple thousand bucks".

I know what components cost, but how can you install any kind of a ground loop and a console in that price range?

And, are you serious in comparing the ground loop to a line set? If so, can you explain your thinking on that, because a line set runs in the neighborhood of $100.

Let me clarify for you:

"A geo console may cost about the same as a variable speed minisplit (not talkin thousand dollar mr slim here)"

So a geo console costs about the same as a vari mini (loosely a couple thousand).

" with loop perhaps $1,000."

And the loop about $1,000 (perhaps means I don't know what they will charge but it is only 1/2 ton).

You continue to focus on excerpts without examining them in the context of all the information before you.

Nor did I compare a ground loop and line-set, I suggested deducting the cost of the lineset from the loop cost for a price compare since you insist on comparing product cost to product cost (as if that has a thing to do with installed cost).

You continue to misquote and misrepresent.

This begs another question:
Are you about to slap yourself on the forehead, or criticize my punctuation? I think your track record speaks for itself.

Again you ignored the broader question: why is it bad advice to suggest people shop and compare.

As they say in debate don't change your untennable position, change the question.

Again you ignored the broader question: why is it bad advice to suggest people shop and compare.

Never said it was. Anyone who has read any of my posts here will know that I am always recommending getting multiple quotes.

You continue to focus on excerpts without examining them in the context of all the information before you.

Usually, you communicate well. Is there some reason you are being vague on this topic?

And the loop about $1,000 (perhaps means I don't know what they will charge but it is only 1/2 ton).

Are we to understand that people (allowing for some geographical differences) might reasonably expect to pay about $1,000 for a ground loop for a 1/2 ton "geo console" unit?

OK let's keep the train on the tracks
I can't get gas, oil is 3.80, elec is .20?,
money is tight. I'd like to use the rm yr rnd.
My concern was is it feaseable given the amount of
glass and being on the north side w/ west exposure
Am I throwing $ away to condition it yr rnd?
If there's a way that I could use it all the time
cost to run would be my 1st concern.