I heard on the news that all the snowstorms are creating cabin fever and delaying Prozac shipments. Lets hope that Winter ends soon and the weather improves.

Actually, placing PEX on the bottom versus in the middle of a 4” slab having 12” of under-slab EPS insulation will only cost you 0.4% more in BTUs for the operational life of the system. That is significantly better than the 2.5% loss you incur by placing PEX on the bottom versus in the middle of a 4” slab only having 2” of under-slab EPS insulation.

Too busy in the real world to play with you guys much. Not threatened, just mildly irritated. I have found you on this planet most of the time. You would have had to walk into that one as it was intended for the "Engineer". Please try to duck these as they are required so often and I can't keep up.

Posted By sailawayrb on 02 Mar 2014 09:23 PM
I heard on the news that all the snowstorms are creating cabin fever and delaying Prozac shipments. Lets hope that Winter ends soon and the weather improves.

Actually, placing PEX on the bottom versus in the middle of a 4” slab having 12” of under-slab EPS insulation will only cost you 0.4% more in BTUs for the operational life of the system. That is significantly better than the 2.5% loss you incur by placing PEX on the bottom versus in the middle of a 4” slab only having 2” of under-slab EPS insulation.

Prove it.

A google search on your company name is all the proof anyone needs...

Prove it.

Haven't we been here before? You seem to keep forgetting that Siegenthaler has already proven it and published it for all to criticize, yet it has withstood that criticism. It seems like it would be up to opponents like you to disprove it in a similar manner.

As an engineer, I know that you will set up a heat gradient with the center at the tubing location. The closer that is to the insulative layer, the higher the gradient at the insulation will be and the more heat will be lost across it. It's pretty simple.

Posted By warimoto on 02 Mar 2014 05:50 AM
Wow..... only 50 mm ?  we had that in the 1970s...   they must have more than than that in the cold parts of North America, Alaska and Canada?

A significant difference between privately owned homes in Europe and USA/Canada is that in Europe people build homes with a view toward permanence, whereas here the lifecycle of a home is (consciously or not) presumed to be 50 years or less at the time that they are built, which affects not only the amount of insulation, but other factors as well.  The construction costs of the North American homes is lower, but the cost of heating & cooling them is higher.

Building codes here prescribe minimum R-valus (maximum U-factors, really) that in a financial analysis of the lifecycle cost of energy savings vs. cost of construction presume and even shorter time frame. While many home are indeed demolished and replaced in less than 50 years most are still standing a century or more later, so the code requirements are really BAD economics on a lifecycle basis, but in nations where the period of time time that any individual owns the home is fairly short (the average in the US is something like 7 years, even though a large fraction of home owners will keep it for 25 years or more), there is not a lot of financial incentive to build them any better than that.  This is somewhat better than in Japan, where the presumptive lifecycle of homes is something like 20 years, and the value of any new home declines rapidly with age.

As I understand it the current building codes in Sweden have minimum thermal performance (or maximum energy use)requirements, and leave it up to the designers and builders to figure out the most economic way to achieve those goals, and do not prescribe U-factors or R-values. Clearly using more EPS on the foundation than what is required by code or is common practice in the US & Canada is a cost effective way to achieve that performance.

••••Haven't we been here before?••••
Yeah, once or twice. Think we come to the same conclusion each time. Even if we use Sailor's 2.5% of decreased efficiency and assume that the average person worrying about the most efficient place to install the pex is also building a better then average home, then we can guess that the average amount of thick slab contribution to the house heat is under 30,000 btu's and quite likely well under that.

At 30,000 times 2.5% would be somewhere around 750 btu. I just don't see the value of jeopardizing the pex or investing extra labour to place the pex where it will get damaged, as making economic sense! Especially if the actual btu contribution of the slab drops to the 10,000 area which is the more likely.

If the 2.5% bothers you, you would get a better roi by placing another inch or two of eps!

Well, I probably should have placed another inch or two of EPS, dropping the 2.5% somewhat, but the question then becomes why lose the reduced number in the first place? What I have seen is homes lose 20% due to only "a few percent" being shaved here or there. Over time it adds up to something. If it is unavoidable or drags down the ROI, that is one thing, but why lose it if you don't have to? I had absolutely no problems at all with putting the PEX towards the top.

Posted By sailawayrb on 03 Mar 2014 10:24 AM
A google search on your company name is all the proof anyone needs...

Thank you for the plug, but still no confirmed science here. Just the parroting of a theoretical model and unproven solution to an imaginary problem. This obviously experienced installer, operating in a cold climate (albeit temperate by Minnesota standards) and following the same procedure for installing PEX tubing in a slab-on-ground radiant systems, as most of us do here in the US, save the extra insulation. Even this practice is put into question by the this study. http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:587720/FULLTEXT01.pdf Life is all about return on investment. The question is often; who's investment. My Suisse relatives have been handing down the "Chalet" for a few hundred years now. My grandfather, not being the oldest son, came to America and managed to survive 84 years and did so in homes with single pane windows and some without insulation of any kind, thank God.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 03 Mar 2014 11:01 AM

Prove it.

Haven't we been here before? You seem to keep forgetting that Siegenthaler has already proven it and published it for all to criticize, yet it has withstood that criticism. It seems like it would be up to opponents like you to disprove it in a similar manner.

As an engineer, I know that you will set up a heat gradient with the center at the tubing location. The closer that is to the insulative layer, the higher the gradient at the insulation will be and the more heat will be lost across it. It's pretty simple.

You are mistaken again. Proof is the tested standard. A standard is not made, nor proven, in a theoretical model, no matter how sound the science supporting it. In residential slab-on-ground construction elevating the PEX in a 4" slab is simply affectation. While we ramble on about where to put the PEX 9 out of 10 homes in the US still use force air. The first rule Marketing: Don't kill the category.

If you actually read he Swedish references we could have an enlightened debate about FPSF one of the tenants of which is the use of less insulation at the perimeter. This is the P in FPSF. Most of the information is not simply theory but practice.

As a Political Scientist and licensed mechanical contractor I can state with some confidence to insulate with > 50 year ROI is more politics than science and one can't ignore either with any success. History is rife with the results of those who've tried.

If you are truly licensed Badger, you may want to update the companies who track and rate contractors:

Angies List

BuildZoom

Modern in MN

Thanks for trying ICF. However, we largely ignore this person once we learned what we were dealing with. As some of his unhappy customers have indicated, all you get is this oft-repeated diatribe…

We do have concerns how unethical hacks can ruin the reputation of the HR business for the rest of us.

Posted By sailawayrb on 03 Mar 2014 03:58 PM
If you are truly licensed Badger, you may want to update the companies who track and rate contractors:

Angies List

BuildZoom

Modern in MN

Thanks for trying ICF. However, we largely ignore this person once we learned what we were dealing with. As some of his unhappy customers have indicated, all you get is this oft-repeated diatribe…

We do have concerns how unethical hacks can ruin the reputation of the HR business for the rest of us.

How typically thin. Are you old enough to be on this blog? I invite you and all those truly interested, to review our Angie's List ratings. You have to pay for it, unlike the two latter references, whom, like yourself, would not pay for, nor listen to reason. http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/experience.html

Since you indicated that you are licensed and paying for your Angies List rating, why wouldn’t you also inform them that you are licensed?

Correct, rating companies that charge fees essentially enable you purchase your grade independent of how your actual customers rate your performance. I see that you also pay to be a BBB member too:

BBB Ethics

We don’t pay any companies for marketing or rating services. We rely solely on our customer satisfaction to accomplish our marketing and rating service. Nevertheless, our ratings are still very high.

We do understand how someone who practices political science as you indicated wouldn’t let personal or corporate integrity deter them from achieving their goals. I suppose we just have very different personal values and corporate business models, and this is why we are always at odds…

No one can pay for an Angie's List rating. In fact you can't qualify to pay to "advertise" until you have favorable ratings from "paying" consumer members.

The same is generally true of the BBB. If you took the time to read my website you would know that I disparage and refuse to pay such middlemen. Please note the last line of this page of our Website.

http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/contractor.html

We haven't had the need to advertise with anyone for years.

Yet more evidence, that you don't have a clue nor any interest in the category and only show up to pontificate and brazenly advertise your "services".

We are always at odds because of your obvious lack of experience and humility. My tolerance for your slanderous remarks has ended here. If you persist, I'll give my attorney some exercise.

Yes, if you think you have a case, please have your attorney pursue it. We would greatly welcome that and we will publish the verdict on this forum as it will also be public information too.

In the mean time, do you actually have a license like you claim or are you just slinging BS like you often do? Like your many unhappy customers who have publically posted their complaints, many of us on this forum are tired of your oft-repeated diatribe, your hostile behavior, and your ignorance about HR systems in general.

So like you, to speak for the entire forum. We could not have better BBB or Angie's list ratings, even though we do not "belong" nor "pay" for either, thank you. I personally hold the Master Licenses for Plumbing, Gas Fitting, Steam and Hot water fitting and Class A Gas Fitter - Burner, in Minneapolis and St. Paul. Badger Professional Services is also Licensed and Bonded for Plumbing and Mechanical contracting with the State of Minnesota. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@regservices/documents/webcontent/convert_268762.pdf http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@regservices/documents/webcontent/convert_268762.pdf https://secure.doli.state.mn.us/lookup/licensing.aspx https://secure.doli.state.mn.us/lookup/licensing.aspx By the way, I don't think we've seen your sheepskin... Let's have a vote as too who is the most hostile and ignorant. I will abide by a simple majority. Let's go one further and vote for the most smarmy and inclined to personal attacks when their long held prejudices are undone by an innocent contributor from Sweden. Sorry we didn't get more information from this knowledgeable and experienced individual, but the moment was too rich to pass over, as it clearly contradicted everything about PEX placement in a residential slab-on-groud hydronic radiant floor (HRF) you have been bullying us over since you got here. Unbecoming of a self-professed professional, even less an engineer trained in hard science. I would be embarrassed, but I will let you have the last word, as some people need it more than others.

Excellent, finally a straight answer to a simple question. You have a gas fitter license from the city of Minneapolis. So why the reluctance to update all the tracking companies that show your license status as none or unknown?

You likely don’t know this since Minnesota appears to have minimal state licensing requirements, however, in those states that do have state licensing requirements, license numbers MUST be shown on company websites and MUST be shown on all advertisements used by companies marketing their services in that state. So you will find our license numbers for our RMI (Responsible Managing Individual of our company) on our website. You can also obtain license verification from companies that track and publish this information to protect customers such as:

BuildZoom

If you weren’t such a hot head and actually read what we wrote, you would see that we complimented our Swedish contributor for the great info that they provided. If you took the time to read what we wrote and were capable of comprehending basic engineering concepts you would see that the performance data that we provided fully supports placing PEX on the bottom of a slab when you have several inches of insulation. However, this is NOT the case when you only have 2” of insulation unless you don’t mind losing an additional 2.5% of your total heating BTUs/hour forever. If you had a professional engineering license, you would know that we have sworn an oath to uphold ethics, report unethical conduct, and protect the public wellbeing.

We have been bullying you…that’s a good one. You have been bullying us ever since we suggested that customers should first check the credentials of contractors before hiring them. I hope you know that everything you write on forums such as this is forever retrievable and discoverable by an attorney of an unhappy customer. One of our unlisted services is providing expert testimony witness against bad contractors. We will often do this pro bono as it is consistent with what we have sworn to uphold. We also report contractors who are we become aware of who are operating outside their legal jurisdiction to the cognizant state Attorney General.

Again, please have your attorney initiate a case against us as you threatened. As they say, BS walks and money talks…and that is the last word we hope to have with you.

Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 02 Mar 2014 05:10 PM

Posted By warimoto on 01 Mar 2014 02:57 AM
We put the pex tubes under the mesh here in sweden works fine imho

here a pic  http://wellmax.se/files/grunder30.jpg

Now that is crazy talk! Nearly everyone here, most especially the officious "professionals" KNOW that the PEX pipe is to be PRECISELY place in the center, or exactly 2" below the surface of any given radiant floor slab regardless of application, floor covering, climate or any other circumstances that might mitigate the dictates of good conscience and sound engineering practice. Besides it is direct conflict with "The Book". HERETIC! Please explain how the Swedes, (with more than 50 years of real-world experience with slab-on-ground FPSF and "deeply" embedded PEX tubing, dare I say; attached directly to the foam) sleep at night? And the wire is placed ON TOP of the PEX tubing? Say it isn't so! http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/hrf.html

Its a standard practise in Sweden and it works fine .... i didnt say its the best way to heat your home ... but it works just fine and it protects the tubes when the slab is poured ... trust me i have poured ALOT of them ( 22 years experince as a concrete worker and "rebar tying dude"). People with lots of money put the pex on top of the concrete slab with 30-50 mm xps and then either put a hardwood floor or some fancy colored or polished concete floor. And they STILL will have 300 mm eps under the concrete slab..

 "How much do you pay per kW?"

about 0.12 dollars ish

Sorry warimoto;

I was being facetious. I couldn't agree more. I too have been fixing radiant floor tubing to the bottom of 4 inch concrete slabs for a couple of decades and found them more than satisfactory. Between 1990 & 1995 we had roughly 3 million feet of polybutylene tucked neatly at the bottom of concrete slabs all over N. America,out of one little distributor I used to operate. Some of the commercial systems were even installed over bear ground! Imagine. Of course it is all about design temperatures and ROI.

I find more than interesting, the reduction of electrical use in Sweden primarily attributed to the use of heat pumps, as apposed to increased insulation, conservation et al. This makes sense, as there are many more houses renovated than built new.

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:587720/FULLTEXT01.pdf


Your cost of electricity is exactly what we pay in Minneapolis, but you do have the Greener advantage (low carbon footprint) afforded by Nuclear power and to a lesser degree hydro. Reinvesting this windfall in alternative energy seems to be paying dividends.

Do you find most of the radiant floors you have installed driven by heat pumps, district energy, bio-fuels?

Thank you for sharing.