Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Mar 2012 01:23 AM


If you are spending $2,500 yearly on heat, then your special windows might be saving you $250 a year. Unfortunately, if you have done a good job everywhere else, your heating bill might be only $1,500 or $1,000, in which case the special windows are down to a savings of $150 or $100 per year. What have you given up to get that savings and how much more did you have to spend for them initially?

I will be posting a thread in the not too distant future that will have quotes from window manufacturers. You will be quite surprised to see the numbers. This will dispel the notion that US manufacturer windows are less expensive than their high energy efficient European counterparts.

One can buy a reliable & well engineered Prius for $24K and get 50MPG or buy a Volt for $47K and get 32MPG with poor reliability & engineering. Just for clarification in my example, the Volt is the high U-Value windows.

Lbear, Do you know of anyone having any experience with Intus? I spoke with them and they told me that there is a 10 week build time. Looks like a great product.

Posted By peteinny on 21 Mar 2012 10:26 PM
Lbear, Do you know of anyone having any experience with Intus? I spoke with them and they told me that there is a 10 week build time. Looks like a great product.

The build time sounds about right. All their windows are custom made. They don't "mass produce" like the big name window companies.

They make an awesome window, one of the best on the market. They are my favorite window so far. I would definitely order them for my future home.

http://youtu.be/e5ckOqTo4CU

http://youtu.be/lhtYPE30Q40

http://youtu.be/R2s-psUk8QM

Lbear, what is your estimated time for providing everyone on the board the testing data?

Lbear, Have you ever seen these in person?

Posted By EnerLux on 22 Mar 2012 07:43 PM
Lbear, what is your estimated time for providing everyone on the board the testing data?

Here are some links with the data:

Intus Windows

If you want more detailed information, you can contact Intus and they will forward you the test results in an email.

Posted By peteinny on 22 Mar 2012 07:57 PM
Lbear, Have you ever seen these in person?

I have not but I did view many pictures and videos. I have also talked with people who have them. If you contact a local rep maybe they can direct you to a home in your area that has them.

Lbear, Spoke with the rep and got a quote for their pvc. I am waiting on a quote for their aluminum / wood. Nothing in my area at this time. Unfortunately the dealer is located several hours away in Maine. A few things about the windows that I am unsure of. One is that they open in. The other is the sill on the outside. They are installed like replacement windows. This means that they will most likely have a sill detail. I guess it is personal preference.

Posted By peteinny on 22 Mar 2012 08:26 PM
Lbear, Spoke with the rep and got a quote for their pvc. I am waiting on a quote for their aluminum / wood. Nothing in my area at this time. Unfortunately the dealer is located several hours away in Maine. A few things about the windows that I am unsure of. One is that they open in. The other is the sill on the outside. They are installed like replacement windows. This means that they will most likely have a sill detail. I guess it is personal preference.

The one positive about opening in, is that the windows are easy to clean the exterior glass. The downside is that it can get in the way when open, depending on room location.

Were the windows pricey in your bid?

There are other companies that utilize that technology but are U.S. based. 

I have not used the European tilt/turn windows primarily because of cost.  I have seen them many times at trade shows but the price has been too much for the budget.  However, the Intus window assembled in America with European technology appears to me to be much more reasonable in price than any of the German-made windows that I have priced.  

Some of my clients will not accept thick, tall frames since all they have ever seen up to now has been very thin Pella like windows.  Some will not accept inward swinging windows even tho they may never open the window.  Go figure (pun intended.)

Lbear, I can definitely see that when the windows are open in some locations they can become an issue. Also, with the installation in an ICF house the windows will only open 90degrees or so unless the window is recessed further into the interior. As far as cost they were very affordable. The pvc windows were priced in the range of $35 a square ft delivered. They were less than one third the Marvin tri pane window.

Posted By peteinny on 22 Mar 2012 08:46 PM
Lbear, I can definitely see that when the windows are open in some locations they can become an issue. Also, with the installation in an ICF house the windows will only open 90degrees or so unless the window is recessed further into the interior. As far as cost they were very affordable. The pvc windows were priced in the range of $35 a square ft delivered. They were less than one third the Marvin tri pane window.

Also remember that a tilt & turn or casement window allows for FULL height ventilation, which sliders and single/double hung windows only allow for 1/2 ventilation of their actual window size. I don't think the thicker ICF wall would cause a ventilation problem. Not that one would install leaky sliders or double hung windows in a home that they were tying to achieve a leak free and tight design.

Like you, the Intus are very reasonable and like you, the Marvin quote I got was completely outrageous. The Marvin and Pella triple panes are completely overpriced and perform at 50% of what the Intus Windows performs at. The Marvin rep claimed they make the best windows that is why the Marvin windows are at a premium. I've been getting quotes from many manufacturers and the numbers are surprising. I will make a new thread later on getting into the window quotes I got.

LBear, that test data is not from the North American standard so you cannot make a fair comparison until you provide apples to apples comparison. Please stop bashing American manufacturers until you provide fair and verified comparison.

European window manufacturers list all units of the window; the frame, the glass, the warm edge spacer, and a host of other factors which are listed below. Then the Uw rating is created which is a VERY strict and VERY difficult low number to attain, unless the window is as a complete entity, designed and engineered as a top quality window. Any poor element design within the window (spacer, frame, etc) will cause the Uw rating to be higher than allowed to and it will NOT pass the strict Passive House numbers.

As mentioned before, the facts are the facts. Currently there are no American window manufacturers (besides Serious Windows) that would pass the European Passive House standards. That is not to say that there will not be, which I hope one day there will be, but for now American windows are seriously lagging in energy design when compared to European windows.

EUROPEAN WINDOWS UTILIZE:

• the glazing U-value U_g and the surface area of the glazing A_g,
  
• the U-value of the frame U_f and the surface area of the frame A_f
  
• the thermal bridge coefficient at the edge of glass Ψ_g (essentially determined by the spacer) and the glass edge length l_g
  
• also included is the thermal bridge due to the installation of the window in the exterior wall Ψ_Inst and the length l_Ins where the window meets the wall.

Glazing surface area	Ag	(glazing)
Frame surface area	Af	(frame)
Glass edge length	lg	(glazing perimeter)
Frame edge length	lInst	(frame perimeter)

	Ag Ug + Af Uf + lg Ψg  (+  lInstΨInst )
Uw =
	Ag + Af

EUROPEAN WINDOW SPECS

Posted By peteinny on 22 Mar 2012 08:26 PM 
...
 A few things about the windows that I am unsure of. One is that they open in. The other is the sill on the outside. They are installed like replacement windows. This means that they will most likely have a sill detail. I guess it is personal preference.

Some of the tilt/turn windows open inward, some outward.  You have a choice of losing some indoor living space for the ones that open inward, or losing outdoor space like on porches for those that open outward.  Also for the outward opening windows near stairs, you need to consider potential head-banging issues. 

The Europeans often use windows without screens, while most people in the U.S. use screens.  The fellow that writes the blog about EdgewaterHaus in Maine did not like the screens on the Intus windows, and said (http://edgewaterhaus.com/?p=1017):
"As well made as the Intus windows appear, the fixed screens seem to be an engineering afterthought (In our travels to Europe, we have noted few buildings had window screens). The Intus fixed screens attach to the frame with a series of brackets that overlap and compress the outermost gasket on the window. At best, they look clunky when the window is open, and I wondered if the compressed gasket affects performance. Intus offers an exterior mount pull down screen, but Edgewaterhaus has many windows units with a mix of fixed and venting window panes. We did not like the aesthetics of an exterior screen mounted over just the venting pane."
So if you intend to use screens, you might want to check to make sure they will suit your needs.

Posted By Lbear on 22 Mar 2012 10:39 PM
...

Glazing surface area	Ag	(glazing)
Frame surface area	Af	(frame)
Glass edge length	lg	(glazing perimeter)
Frame edge length	lInst	(frame perimeter)

	Ag Ug + Af Uf + lg Ψg  (+  lInstΨInst )
Uw =
	Ag + Af

EUROPEAN WINDOW SPECS

So presumably you have gone through these calculations for the Intus windows in your careful comparisons and will provide the results to the forum.  That is what EnerLux has requested from you several times.  Also please provide the results for Intus windows as tested by NFRC so that the results can be compared with windows made by Canadian and American companies under the same test conditions.  

Posted By peteinny on 22 Mar 2012 08:46 PM
Lbear, I can definitely see that when the windows are open in some locations they can become an issue. Also, with the installation in an ICF house the windows will only open 90degrees or so unless the window is recessed further into the interior. As far as cost they were very affordable. The pvc windows were priced in the range of $35 a square ft delivered. They were less than one third the Marvin tri pane window.

Another thing to consider is that the standard spacing in America is 12.7 mm (1/2”) , while it's 16mm (5/8") in Europe. In America 3mm glass is allowed & commonly used, while 4mm glass is the minimum size in Europe. So a standard triple glazed American window compared to a European window means the airspace in the American window is only 11mm.  All of this means the Intus window will be a thicker window overall. As mentioned by Alton, some like this while some might not like the thicker Intus windows.


I believe you will find this study interesting:

European Windows Save Carbon

The part about the thicker window is not true. There are American window systems that will accommodate a 1 1/2" IG. It has to do with the glazing pocket and not the frame height. Alton was referring to the bulky aesthetic of tilt and turn windows.

They don't "mass produce" like the big name window companies.

Another incorrect statement. It's one thing to tout the features of your favorites, but why the need for the bogus info about all the others?

Marvins and Pellas, just a couple of the "big name" companies that have been discussed here, are custom made. They are made when you order them - to your size and specifications. My Pella build time was three weeks - from date of order to delivery. Every one made to order.

Marvin will even do custom glazing by putting your choice of glass and coatings into the windows.

Lbear, stop posting. I think people are tired of you presenting false information and presenting yourself as an expert.