Posted By Bob I on 04 Sep 2012 07:49 PM
Integrity is now making casements and awnings in triple glazed. Marvin makes two fiberglass windows - the Integrity line and the All Ultrex line; same except that the Integrity has a pine interior - real wood, not just an ultra thin veneer, and from the inside it looks like a wood window. You can stain it, leave it clear pine or paint it whatever color you want.

From my research it appears that fiberglass is a very stout product. The reason for its lack of popularity in other manufacturers is the expensive machinery/tooling requiring to create pultruded fiberglass. Marvin has the US market share for now.

Inline Fiberglass Windows out of Canada has been making pultruded fiberglass windows for 15+ years.

Any energy numbers for the Marvin dual or triple pane fiberglass?

The Integrity line only offers the tri-pane in the wood Ultrex, not full Ultrex line. They currently offer the tri-pane in a low u/shgc option of a u of around .22-23 on casements. Dual panes can be had in several Cardinal glass types from high SHG 180 option getting numbers above .50 and u still around .29, and standard glass u is .28. These numbers are nearly the same as more expensive Inline and other Canadian options. They also offer several standard colors and nail fins. Most full fiberglass Canadian ones come in standard white or a couple bland colors with a big upcharge for other colors. Most also do not have a nail fin, so it would need to be added with an extruded aluminum brick mold, which adds more money. Add the cost of shipping/import mixed with long lead times, and the Integrity becomes a good deal for US Customers wanting Fiberglass exteriors. Lead times are about 2 weeks on Integrity. However in all fairness, if you are looking to get a high performing and unique glass package, the Canadian options are very good. They have a lot of options to custom tune the glass. For example, they offer high SHG triple pane while Integrity does not.
I have recieved prices on the Wood Ultrex Tri-panes direct from my Marvin rep, list prices (not a dealer). They are not as cheap as I was hoping. The tri-pane adds about 40% to the cost of the window.
My new home I plan on going with Integrity wood ultrex dual panes, high SHG on the south and tri-panes on the north and west. Its set to start in about 2 weeks.

A U value of .22-.23 for a triple casement is not good for any window. Most fiberglass casements have their numbers in the teens(.16-.19). Combine this with a below average Air Infiltration number (.11 for their casement, correct me if I am wrong) and below average DP numbers for their fiberglass lines. Though the Marvin has all the bells and whistles and is an attractive window.

Izerac, All I found on the NFRC was the Integrity fiberglass casement with a top .30 u value. Where did you get the information? Is it the Integrity Casement Operator/Stationary (CCAA)?

Could you be kind enough to post the link, thanks!

After some research I found the NFRC numbers for the Marvin Integrity. I was disappointed to see their U-Value numbers in the 0.29 - 0.33  Must say that is not that impressive for a window, which is surprising since that is a top of the line fiberglass window:

Marvin Integrity Performance #s

The air infiltration on the Marvin Integrity are pretty bad also, they don't give specifics but generalize by stating they are <.30  A good window should see <.04  I don't get it. Why are the Marvin Integrity #s not that great? You have a great framing product (protruded fiberglass) but then the energy numbers and air ratings fall flat.

I pulled the NFRC #s for the Inline Fiberglass Windows out of Canada. The U-Values on their triple panes are in the 0.17 - 0.22 range.

Inline Fiberglass #s

Their air infiltration #s are in the 0.03 range, which is very good.

It will be interesting to see if Marvin will be able to match those #s once they get their triple pane windows. If Marvin can make a triple pane fiberglass window with a U-Value of < 0.20 and an air infiltration rate of <0.03, then they will have a bulletproof window design. Hopefully all this can be achieved at a reasonable cost. I know when I was quoted for their dual-pane windows in alum/wood, they said that the triple panes were a 30%+ up-charge.

I found the Marvin Integrity Ultrex Triple Pane NFRC #s. The U-Values are in the 0.20 - 0.23 range. The highest SHGC they make in that design is SHGC = 0.25 - 0.31  The triple panes only come in casement and awning windows, I couldn't find them in standard/fixed glass. They may carry them now but the PDF did not show them.

Integrity Windows & Doors - NFRC


Marvin Integrity Fiberglass - AAMA/WDMA/CSA 101/I.S. 2/A440−08 Performance Ratings

Design Pressure Ratings = 15psf - 50psf
Water Penetration Ratings = 2.86psf - 7.50psf
Air Infiltration (cfm/ft2) = < .3
Forced Entry = not shown
Uniform Load Structural Test = 22 - 75 psf


Intus uPVC - AAMA/WDMA/CSA 101/I.S. 2/A440−08 Performance Ratings
*tested on a 3' 03" x 7' 06" Casement/Tilt&Turn*

Design Pressure Ratings = 70psf
Water Penetration Ratings = 15.0psf
Air Infiltration (cfm/ft2) = 0.03
Forced Entry = Grade 10
Uniform Load Structural Test = 105.0 psf

Look at the test results. Marvin fiberglass gets beaten by Intus uPVC on each and every test. On some tests the uPVC test numbers DOUBLE that of Marvin. I am not knocking Marvin but something is not adding up here. Marvin claims that fiberglass is "8x stronger than vinyl", which is true when you compare cheap vinyl windows. It's like when someone compares ICF to R-13 fiberglass batts in a 2x4 wood framed 16"oc home. It's not a fair comparison. uPVC with steel reinforcement would be a better test to Marvin's fiberglass.

Mind you that Intus tested a 3 x 7 casement/tilt & turn. That is a pretty big window and an operable window to boot. From what I can tell Marvin's test window was a fixed window but the size was not given.

In the end there is no doubt that fiberglass is strong and that has less expansion and contraction rates than PVC does. A true comparison to fiberglass would be a uPVC w/steel reinforcement like that of Intus. Even then the test results show that Intus uPVC ratings are much better and the window is almost twice as strong.

Lbear, please compare apples to apples. If you want to compare it to Intus, go for it, but its not a fair comparison. A steel reinforced uPVC should be stronger then fiberglass. Not to mention the frame is a lot thicker. But from prices I got, you pay for it. With the Integrity you get wood interiors, not vinyl. This is important to some people. Me...I HATE vinyl. It looks and feels cheap. Its not always about the ratings. Sure, on paper the ratings are higher. Do the math and run the numbers. You are talking about dollars of savings here in performance. According to RESfen, going from duals to triples in my zone 6 was a 38 year payback. Then going from duals to an even higher cost window such as Intus (even thought their price was not that much higher then Inline) the payback jumped to closer to 50 years.
Integrity is not a high end window, dont present it as such. And dont group it with the Marvin alum clad model either. It is a definate step above builder grade or typical vinyl, but its not a Marvin or Kolbe. Its a good, strong, well performing window at a great price point, which is why the growth of their product line has been nuts. They just introduced the tri-pane, and have a lot of catch-up to do. Other get their u values lower by using full fiberglass frames, foam filled, double and triple weather seals, etc. All of which come at a price and the Integrity currently does not have (not many big US guys either). But at least they are one of the few that offer a fiberglass exterior with a tri-pane option out of the US big players. Is it a go to window for extreme performance? We can all agree certainly not. But if you are bouncing between Pella, Andersen, Eagle, etc, it certainly stands out some.

Posted By lzerarc on 06 Sep 2012 01:07 PM
Lbear, please compare apples to apples. If you want to compare it to Intus, go for it, but its not a fair comparison. A steel reinforced uPVC should be stronger then fiberglass. Not to mention the frame is a lot thicker. But from prices I got, you pay for it. With the Integrity you get wood interiors, not vinyl. This is important to some people. Me...I HATE vinyl. It looks and feels cheap. Its not always about the ratings. Sure, on paper the ratings are higher. Do the math and run the numbers. You are talking about dollars of savings here in performance. According to RESfen, going from duals to triples in my zone 6 was a 38 year payback. Then going from duals to an even higher cost window such as Intus (even thought their price was not that much higher then Inline) the payback jumped to closer to 50 years.

The point I was making was that Intus uPVC triple pane cost much less $$$ than Marvin Integrity Fiberglass in dual pane. Not only does Intus cost less, it has much better performance numbers and much better energy numbers, all for less $$$. Let alone the Marvin Ultrex Fiberglass windows, which will cost even more than their Integrity Fiberglass.

There is no doubt that fiberglass window frames have many advantages over wood, aluminum and even uPVC but Marvin dropped the ball when it came to engineering a high energy efficient window that is air tight. Inline Fiberglass or Fibertec Fiberglass out of Canada has done a much better job in designing a fiberglass windows than Marvin has. Marvin has the right idea by using a fiberglass frame but then is still stuck in the 1990s when it comes to creating a window unit that has the #s to back it.

If one is looking to get an air tight home that is going to get great blower door test #s or Passive Home compliance, how can that be achieved with air infiltration rates of .3 cfm/ft2 and U-Values of 0.30 and higher? One needs to see < .05 to get good air tight windows with U-Values of  < 0.20

I will post the new quote I get from Marvin on the Integrity Ultrex Fiberglass windows and I am very confident that it will come in at least 50% more than Intus. The Marvin rep I dealt with was trying to get me to steer away from getting the triple pane Marvin Fiberglass windows, he said I should expect a 30% up-charge from their dual pane fiberglass windows. He claimed that the triple pane fiberglass windows are "too heavy" for Arizona. I am not sure what that means??

Inline Fiberglass Triple Pane Casement = U-Values of 0.20 - 0.22
Inline Fiberglass Triple Pane Fixed = U-Values of 0.17 - 0.20

Marvin Integrity Ultrex Dual Pane = U-Values of 0.29 - 0.33
Marvin Integrity Ultrex Triple Pane = U-Values of 0.20 - 0.23

Fibertec Fiberglass/Wood Clad Triple Pane = U-Values of 0.14 - 0.21

Intus uPVC Triple Pane = U-Values of 0.14 - 0.18

As of now, September 2012, if one wants a fiberglass window that performs really well, Fibertec or Inline would be the way to go. Marvin has the future potential to create such a window but right now they are still lagging behind the other fiberglass window manufacturers.

first off, I am not sure who your dealer is or the pricing you have recieved- or maybe you are just not that familiar with the Integrity line as a whole.
They have the full fiberglass frame, which is All Ultrex line. This is their CHEAPEST line of windows, and was designed to compete with builder grade vinyl. Not more expensive like you claim. They do not offer triple pane, and the dual pane u values are above .30, not good.
Then you bump up to the wood ultrex line, which is exterior fiberglass and solid wood interior. U values drop some, options go up, and you get the 1 triple pane option.
Second- cost much less? Quotes I got put Integrity WAY below Intus. Again, last time we talked about this you kept claiming Marvin tri-pane, I called you on it, yet you claimed it was Integrity. This was before they even had a tri-pane option. Again, I believe you are comparing Marvin tri-panes, not Integrity. If that is the case, then I would probably agree with you, the Marvin would be higher then a the Intus and the Inline.
Third- me or no one mentioned PH or similar structures. Of course you wouldnt use Integrity in PH buildings.
Forth- If I had time to find the blog I read, builders did use Integrity windows and tested out below .06 in their homes. THis too was a surprise to me that raised my confidence in the product since they only claim tested air infiltration numbers as <.30 which doesnt tell you much.
Finally- there are other good full fiberglass windows as well. Accurate Dorwin, Thermotech, and a bunch others.
I am not 100% set on Integrity, but the Inlines also do not come with a nailing fin without the expensive add on of brick mold. factor in near $1k in shipping costs (are you adding that to your numbers?!), a much longer wait period, and a Non-US company...there are other things to consider from a project coordination standpoint.

My price quotes for Integrity All-Ultrex single hung windows put their price a little bit higher (~20%) than standard builder grade vinyl windows I could get at the local lumber yard. This was for standard size windows, i.e. mostly 3050 and 3060 size.

Thanks to all for some great comments. Intus seems to make only tilt-in rather than standard casements. Probably not the best for this climate and problematic for window treatments.

Posted By MerlinMc on 09 Sep 2012 01:44 PM
Thanks to all for some great comments. Intus seems to make only tilt-in rather than standard casements. Probably not the best for this climate and problematic for window treatments.

That is correct, Intus only makes European style tilt&turn windows, not opening out casements like they do here in the USA.

Not sure why they would be "problematic" in a wet climate? As far as window treatments go, it can be a little more challenging getting something that would not get in the way when you open the window. A simple solution would be a thermal window curtain installed on a longer prop rod. This way you can slide the curtains over and the window would have enough clearance to open without interference.

In the end your best bet for no maintenance windows would be either uPVC (steel reinforced) or fiberglass. No worries about getting the window wet and dealing with swelling wood or rotting wood. There is no doubt that fiberglass has the least amount of expansion and the strength is plentiful. uPVC with steel reinforcement is stronger in most cases but there is some expansion issues that occur with uPVC. Although the steel reinforcement does curtail some of this.

In a climate like western Washington I don't see the expansion being a problem. Your diurnal swings are probably 10-15 degrees, which is not much.

Marvin contacted me and stated that they cannot make triple pane fiberglass windows in my sizes

Why can other manufacturers like Intus and every European & Canadian window manufacturer out there make windows in my size in triple pane with no problem. They can even make ones double my size in triple pane without breaking a sweat, yet Marvin is incapable of producing those sizes.

I asked the rep WHY does Marvin claim that their fiberglass windows are "8x stronger than vinyl" yet Marvin cannot make a fiberglass window in the same size that the "weaker" vinyl manufacturers can? He had no response.

I now have to change the bid to double pane and even then I am getting flack about my casement sizes. "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!" is what I am hearing...

I must say that I am NOT impressed with Marvin's Fiberglass windows capabilities. They need to hire some engineers that know what they are doing. There is no rhyme or reason for their lack of ability to produce a fiberglass unit in a size that I can get in uPVC all day long.

Lbear, give it up. Get your uPVC. The Integrity is not a custom taylored size line like Canadian fiberglass and others are. They are a mid line priced window that just entered the tri-pane market to provide a good, US made window to the masses. Maybe if they added steel like uPVC has to they can hit it. Again, you arent comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a highly engineered, ultra performing, steel reinforced imported vinyl window. Integrity's claims are geared towards 99% of the vinyl builder junk they throw in new homes. You are above that, most here are.
I got quotes on a large window from Inline and they too had to add steel. You are clearly the adnorm with your window sizing. (which is interesting to me as you push ICF, tightness, efficiency, yet you want a massive r-5 hole in your wall?!) You probably wont find many US big boys that will get you the size you are after. Go with Intus, close the book, and enjoy staring at your white vinyl frames while you save a handful of dollars a year.

Posted By lzerarc on 13 Sep 2012 10:50 AM
Lbear, give it up. Get your uPVC. The Integrity is not a custom taylored size line like Canadian fiberglass and others are. They are a mid line priced window that just entered the tri-pane market to provide a good, US made window to the masses. Maybe if they added steel like uPVC has to they can hit it. Again, you arent comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a highly engineered, ultra performing, steel reinforced imported vinyl window. Integrity's claims are geared towards 99% of the vinyl builder junk they throw in new homes. You are above that, most here are.
I got quotes on a large window from Inline and they too had to add steel. You are clearly the adnorm with your window sizing. (which is interesting to me as you push ICF, tightness, efficiency, yet you want a massive r-5 hole in your wall?!) You probably wont find many US big boys that will get you the size you are after. Go with Intus, close the book, and enjoy staring at your white vinyl frames while you save a handful of dollars a year.

One can get other colors besides white in uPVC. They have a complete color palette.

My point is that US Manufacturers are still behind the technology and energy curve when it comes to windows. That is a fact. Whether it's because energy costs are still relatively cheap in the USA or we just don't care, major window manufacturers in the USA are making and selling R-1 and R-2 windows. While the rest of Europe and Canada are making and selling windows with R-5 and R-9 values. In addition to that the Euro & Canadian windows are getting awesome air seal ratings of < 0.03 cfm and rule the market in triple pane engineering.

I am still waiting on my final quote from Marvin but from the initial results, the Marvin fiberglass windows will be MORE expensive than the Intus windows. Why would I pay more $$ for a Marvin window that is less energy efficient, gets poor air ratings, is not as strong, and cannot be made in larger sizes?

As far as the "massive r-5 hole in your wall", if that is how you view and approach architecture and passive solar, then we are not even on the same page.

I look forward to your quote and feedback. Like me and others said, we all agree imported windows are better then most US windows. That is why I am telling you, why bother with US at all? Sure you can get other colors, but you pay for it, a lot. They told me 20% per side. And we all know how well vinyl likes dark colors. Lets stop the exaggeration. Please point me to an r1 and r2 window in the US, especially one that has been brought up at any point. As far as your architecture/PS comment-tread lightly here...I would love to see your calcs for wall to floor, glass to mass and floor, overhang shading coefficients in heating and cooling, etc. I would also like to see estimated energy savings with glass packages per elevations and cost of that window w/ estimated payoffs. I am not calling you wrong, I am curious. Then we can move forward with the discussion.

Posted By lzerarc on 14 Sep 2012 09:18 AM
I look forward to your quote and feedback. Like me and others said, we all agree imported windows are better then most US windows. That is why I am telling you, why bother with US at all? Sure you can get other colors, but you pay for it, a lot. They told me 20% per side. And we all know how well vinyl likes dark colors. Lets stop the exaggeration.

I don't think you spoke to Intus because "20% per  side" is not accurate. If one wants to add a color besides white there is a 25% up-charge and that includes the color on BOTH SIDES. So on a $13,000 window package that would be and additional $3,250 for the color option (both sides) for a grand total of $16,250 for my window package (which INCLUDES shipping). Still well below any window bid I have received from Marvin, Milgard, Pella, Andersen, SeriousWindows, or anyone else. In addition to being the lowest priced window bid out there, Intus also had the best energy & performance ratings out of any of the windows I got bids on. U-Value = 0.14  R-Value=7  DP=70

The Marvin Triple Pane alum/wood was $27,000 and the ratings were:  U-Value=0.24   R-Value=4  DP=40  (in addition they could not make the triple pane in all my sizes so I had to either reduce the size or go to double pane)

$13,000/$16,250 vs $27,000 - Basically double the price for a window the performs less. In the end the numbers speak for themselves.

Once I get the bid for the Marvin Integrity Fiberglass, I will post them here...

In a climate like western Washington I don't see the expansion being a problem. Your diurnal swings are probably 10-15 degrees, which is not much

Is that all it is supposed to be here? Right now we are seeing overnight lows in the low 40's and high 30's and daytime temperatures in the high 70's. Those are daily variations in the 30-40 degree range.

Moreover, the sun seems particularly intense such that items in sunlight (like windows) probably see markedly higher temperature variation than ambient. How much of a variation does it have to be before the expansion is a problem?

 Posted By ICFHybrid on 16 Sep 2012 10:31 AM
How much of a variation does it have to be before the expansion is a problem?

uPVC is going to move more than wood and fiberglass window frames, in addition uPVC is going to move more than the glazing itself, no getting around that. More so in large diurnal swings. What usually happens in typical PVC designs as found in most US Manufacturers is that the frame and glass are designed as one unit and when the PVC frame moves more than the glass, over time the glass seals fail due to the movement.

What Intus engineered to combat this problem is that it separates the glazing unit from the framing with gaskets that allow for movements without any energy loss or frame seal failure between the glass and frame. So in essence the frame and glazing are each allowed to move on their own without compromise.

Take a look at the pic I posted with the Intus profile. You can see what I am talking about. Notice that the glazing unit sits on top of a series of gaskets and the glazing unit is surrounded by those gaskets. The PVC can move as it pleases but it never effects the glazing unit or its seals.

One thing to keep in mind when looking at European U-values is that you are not looking at an apples to apples comparison between Euro and North American specifications. U-value specifications are not calculated the same way in Europe as they are in NA, so that European window U-value numbers will appear to be better versus NA window numbers simply due to variations in how they are tested.

Most people reading this thread are going to be familiar with the "big five" Canadian fiberglass window manufacturers. But there are also Canadian window manufacturers working with uPVC that achieve performance numbers that match or exceed either European uPVC or NA fiberglass numbers.

And while I am not offering an endorsement (I never endorse any window company on line), Innotech Windows, located in Vancouver offers Euro-style tilt-turn (as well as several other style windows) that have performance numbers that easily equal or exceed the numbers quoted for other manufacturers in this thread.

Again, not an endorsement, but since you are building in their neighborhood you might consider checking them out as another possible option.