Oberon

The Innotech T&T has a best U value of 0.18 and Cascadia's and Intus have 0.17. After reading your post I thought I was going to see something great. Your comment of easily meet or exceed was making me think R6 or better...

What are we missing?

Though I agree with the comment about European U values and have been a vocal advocate of apples to apples comparison. Meaning until it is NFRC certified, some European advertised U values are baseless.

Windowrookie,

When I commented on Innotech, I was thinking of the overall performance of the window, from U value to air and water infiltration numbers, to design pressures, and to the overall structure of the product. In hindsight I could have said that Innotech had comparable performance numbers...but I was simply suggesting that the OP take a look locally if they were interested. Again, no endorsement or number to number comparison was intended.

I probably wouldn't go so far as to say that euro U values are baseless, but they are calculated using a different standard and that does make them appear to have better performance numbers when compared with window performance numbers calculated to NFRC baseline.

Posted By Oberon on 17 Sep 2012 02:10 PM And while I am not offering an endorsement (I never endorse any window company on line), Innotech Windows, located in Vancouver offers Euro-style tilt-turn (as well as several other style windows) that have performance numbers that easily equal or exceed the numbers quoted for other manufacturers in this thread.

Again, not an endorsement, but since you are building in their neighborhood you might consider checking them out as another possible option.

Innotech makes good windows but it does NOT sell their products to people in states like Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc. Unless they have a rep in that state, they will not sell you their product. Innotech mostly stays in Canada but might venture out to the Pacific NW but one would have to call to make sure that they will service your state.

I got the quote for the Marvin Integrity Ultrex Fiberglass double pane windows:

Design Pressure Ratings = 15psf - 50psf
Air Infiltration (cfm/ft2) = < .3
U-values = 0.29 - 0.33

* They are NOT able to make triple pane windows in my sizes so the quote is for DOUBLE pane
* They also cannot produce large window sizes so some windows had to be reduced in size

BID = $17,300


Now compare that to the Intus uPVC triple pane windows and bid:

Design Pressure Ratings = 70psf
Air Infiltration (cfm/ft2) = < 0.03
U-Values = 0.14 - 0.18

* They are able to make triple pane windows
* They can produce large sizes so none of the windows need to be reduced

BID = $13,000/$16,250 for the colored frames on both sides


"European windows are built stronger than American windows", states Bill Gorman, engineer at Milgard Windows. "The problem is cost. Americans won't pay the price necessary to build a European-quality window." (speaking about vinyl/PVC windows)

well there you go, now it can be put to rest. Looks like your decision is made for. I am curious in your window sizes however. It seems your pricing is opposite mine. Not just my own home, but all of my commercial work as well. Also curious if you have that other info I requested as far as your glass calculations, heat loss/gain, mass, etc.

Posted By lzerarc on 21 Sep 2012 08:43 AM
well there you go, now it can be put to rest. Looks like your decision is made for. I am curious in your window sizes however. It seems your pricing is opposite mine. Not just my own home, but all of my commercial work as well. Also curious if you have that other info I requested as far as your glass calculations, heat loss/gain, mass, etc.

As far as window sizes, there are some as large as 5x7. 18 windows total, 6 of them operable, South = 12, North = 1, East = 2, West = 3. The home faces due south and that is the side with the views and the highest amount of glazing.

The homes design is first and foremost an architectural expression of the area and our aesthetic likes and wants. It was not created to be the most energy efficient design out there. If that were the case I would create a simple single story rectangle, poke a few holes for windows, and call it a day. So it is an attempt to balance aesthetics and energy efficiency without sacrificing on design. I don't want to live in an energy efficient cave nor do I want to live in a beautiful but energy inefficient home.

With that being said it will be:
ICF (Steady R-23 walls/Effective DBMS R-38)
Steel SIP R-52 Roof with a standing seam metal roof (cool roof)
R7 triple windows utilizing a medium SHGC on the south side of the home
Home will be all electric (no gas)

With the amount of glazing on the south side, it will have exposed concrete or tile floors, so thermal mass will be utilized, in addition to having a concrete 2nd floor, with radiant heating in either the slab on grade 1st floor or the 2nd floor, maybe neither (still undecided). Going to run a 2-stage heat pump system with 2 units (one serving each floor), with ERV. If price is right I might go with PV located on ground level that allows me to move/rotate the panels according the suns angles throughout the year. Roof mounted PV is not allowed in that area.

Lbear, thanks for all of your posts. What window coverings/treatments as well as screens do you plan? I ask because the having the casements open inward rather than outward affects this in a big way.

Posted By MerlinMc on 22 Sep 2012 11:44 AM
Lbear, thanks for all of your posts. What window coverings/treatments as well as screens do you plan? I ask because the having the casements open inward rather than outward affects this in a big way.

Ideally having external coverings works the best in terms of blocking solar gain. Not feasible in my design. Besides that, internally there are 2 options, one is having pull-up blinds and the other is utilizing a curtain rod setup. The first one would require a recessed pocket to allow the blinds to sit in allowing for the window to fully open without hindrance. Here is a link to that detail showing that:

Recessed Blinds


The latter option would require the rod to be longer than usual and one would slide the curtain over to the rod extension area, allowing for the window to fully open without interference.




As far as screens, with tilt&turn windows, the screen is on the outside, not the inside like a casement would be. So the window can operate inward without having any screen issues.

I also found this but I would assume it would be pretty expensive:

Jasno Blinds

Posted By Lbear on 21 Sep 2012 11:53 PM

Posted By lzerarc on 21 Sep 2012 08:43 AM
well there you go, now it can be put to rest. Looks like your decision is made for. I am curious in your window sizes however. It seems your pricing is opposite mine. Not just my own home, but all of my commercial work as well. Also curious if you have that other info I requested as far as your glass calculations, heat loss/gain, mass, etc.

As far as window sizes, there are some as large as 5x7. 18 windows total, 6 of them operable, South = 12, North = 1, East = 2, West = 3. The home faces due south and that is the side with the views and the highest amount of glazing.

The homes design is first and foremost an architectural expression of the area and our aesthetic likes and wants. It was not created to be the most energy efficient design out there. If that were the case I would create a simple single story rectangle, poke a few holes for windows, and call it a day. So it is an attempt to balance aesthetics and energy efficiency without sacrificing on design. I don't want to live in an energy efficient cave nor do I want to live in a beautiful but energy inefficient home.

With that being said it will be:
ICF (Steady R-23 walls/Effective DBMS R-38)
Steel SIP R-48 Roof with a standing seam metal roof (cool roof)
R7 triple windows utilizing a medium SHGC on the south side of the home
Home will be all electric (no gas)

With the amount of glazing on the south side, it will have exposed concrete or tile floors, so thermal mass will be utilized, in addition to having a concrete 2nd floor, with radiant heating in either the slab on grade 1st floor or the 2nd floor, maybe neither (still undecided). Going to run a 2-stage heat pump system with 2 units (one serving each floor), with ERV. If price is right I might go with PV located on ground level that allows me to move/rotate the panels according the suns angles throughout the year. Roof mounted PV is not allowed in that area.

Interesting. didnt know you were building such big house. I have to admit, I do agree with your position on design vs energy efficient design. There is a balance between the 2, and it seems very few hit that balance. Its either energy concerns all the way (hence the boxes you see on GBA website) or massive multi gabled energy sieves. seems like a lot of south glazing, especially for your location. do you have a floor area and mass ratio to glass ratio you can share?

Posted By lzerarc on 23 Sep 2012 10:57 AM


Interesting. didnt know you were building such big house. I have to admit, I do agree with your position on design vs energy efficient design. There is a balance between the 2, and it seems very few hit that balance. Its either energy concerns all the way (hence the boxes you see on GBA website) or massive multi gabled energy sieves. seems like a lot of south glazing, especially for your location. do you have a floor area and mass ratio to glass ratio you can share?

I feel the same about that balance like you do. Homes like the ones below, even though they are "energy efficient" are NOT my cup of tea:

 

Someone directed me to this website:

Pella Architect Series Windows

It seems as though Pella's QC has been going downhill. This is not a remote incident, when you do a Google search you will see many people are experiencing problems with different series of Pella windows. I'm not knocking Pella but IMHO they are not what they use to be. As far as warranties go, who cares if Pella gives you a 10-year, 20-year or lifetime warranty if they refuse to honor the warranty from day one. If one had to go with an American made window, I would lean towards Marvin.

YouTube Video

Pella is getting sued like crazy by many different consumers because of their failed window lines. It's quite shocking to see what is going on with them.

Aluminum & Wood Clad Rot