We have 1335 sq ft of glazing in our new house. Approx 10 would be operable, two sliding doors ... We're getting 3 quotes: Loewen, Duxton and Innotech. Today, Loewen came back with $105,000 which works out to $78 per sq ft. I think this is crazy. We're in Winnipeg, Canada. All windows would be triple paned.

Seems crazy to me as well. Below are the specs for some Intus products I am looking at. This is for a 96" x 48" window at $903 USD delivered (Boise, Idaho).

System: EFORTE
Fittings: MACO
Frame: INOUTIC passive house window profile
Color (inside/outside): White/White
Filler:
1, 2, 3: Sel4x16AxF4, Double glazed unit with 1 lowemissivity
glass, Ug = 0.193
Sash: 1: Tilt & turn2: Tilt & turn
Accessories:
- Mounting hook Eforte ma2 - 14.00 unit

It is only dual pane but the distributor thought it would be a 10-15% premium to go to triple pane.

The quote for a sliding glass door with the specs below was $7,175. This is a Lift-Sliding unit, triple, 128" x 80".

System: TERASA2
Color (inside/outside): White/White
Filler:
1, 2, 3, 4: GrudSel4+16H+Grud4+14H+GrudSel4, Triple
glazed unit with 1 tempered glass and 2 tempered-lowemissivity
Ug = 0.106
Sash: 1: Duoble Lift-sliding
Accessories:
- Double cyllinder, HS handles on both sides - 2.00 set

I am finding prices all over the board and it is sometimes tough to make apple to apple comparisons. Based on the numbers you provided though, I'd keep shopping. Good luck.

How many units does that represent?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 19 Oct 2012 11:17 AM
How many units does that represent?

Officially, we have 21 window opennings. However, some are curtain walls (so multiple windows stiched together), so this is more like 40 windows.

The price of $78/sq ft sounds steep. I paid $34/sq ft in 2010 for aluminum clad wood, triple-pane windows (Pella Designer Series) not including finishing costs. Most of mine are high solar gain (SHGC=0.49) which suits the local climate. The U-values are not spectacular (U=0.31 Btu/(hr ft^2 degF)), but the high solar gain along with the other house features allow for a net-zero source energy home.

I did some calculations for somebody on this forum who was looking at some nice windows with low U-values, but the savings from the low U-values required over 200 years for payback compared to more standard windows.

I would get a quote from Intus Windows and see where you stand. I ran the numbers and they were the least expensive at $39 per square foot for PVC triple pane windows with U Values in the mid teens and they are Passive House windows. If you don't want PVC, you can always try Canadian triple pane fiberglass windows.

I would be leery of Pella windows. They are not what some claim them to be. It's like the BMW 3 series and Jaguar, those 2 cars have been rated the most unreliable cars on the road today (45% breakdown rates). Pella has produced some of the most poorly engineered windows out there in the past 10 years. Just do a search and you will see what I am talking about:

Pella aluminum/ Wood clad Issues

Pella Window Problems Video

Pella Architect Serious Problems

The above is just a tip of the iceberg on how many sites and disgruntled customers who purchased Pella windows in the past 10-15 years and they need to be replaced after only a few years, which Pella will NOT do as they are not honoring their warranty in many cases. Anyone who knows windows would not recommend Pella. There are plenty of better choices out there.

Pella windows are by no means Passive House rated, far from it. They would require some serious re-engineering & complete retooling to get them even close to being Passive House certified.

You really need to explain more about the package before calling it crazy.

Is it a custom color, super over-sized, with upgraded hardware, retractable screens, etc...

It seems a bit much but it's hard to tell based on what you've shared.

Glass alone, of the tempered, tri pane variety will run a customer about $35-40 a square foot....just glass

105k might be out of your budget, but comparing it to a vinyl window from Innotech is not fair.

Wood is expensive.

Yeah, and you will probably be replacing those Pella windows 10 yrs from now, Lee Dodge.

You must sell Pella because you honk them all the time.

They aren't that nice, folks, the quality is pretty bad for the money.  Performance?  Nothing special.

Color me someone who thinks longevity and quality are equally important when it comes to "being green."

When you have to replace your pine windows in 10-15 years, can you really put much merit in a cost/benefit analysis.

Posted By michaeld on 19 Oct 2012 07:26 PM
Yeah, and you will probably be replacing those Pella windows 10 yrs from now, Lee Dodge.

You must sell Pella because you honk them all the time.

They aren't that nice, folks, the quality is pretty bad for the money.  Performance?  Nothing special.

Color me someone who thinks longevity and quality are equally important when it comes to "being green."

When you have to replace your pine windows in 10-15 years, can you really put much merit in a cost/benefit analysis.

You are incorrect.  I do not sell Pella windows, nor do I have any commercial interest in any window companies.  I mention Pella because those of the windows that I purchased for my house.  Windows must be matched to the local climate.  I happen to live in one of the two areas in the U.S. with the highest yearly solar insolation on a vertical surface, and the only one with a predominately heating environment.  (The other area with the highest insolation on a vertical surface is around Las Vegas, hardly heating-only.)  So high solar gain is important in my climate, and the windows that I chose have high solar gain for triple-pane windows. 

I think of Pella windows as a generic representation of middle-of-the-road, high-production windows available in the U.S.  I have demonstrated that these middle-of-the-road windows can be used as one part of a net-zero source energy design, and backed up that claim with measured energy data.  I do not have the experience to recommend Pella over any other brand of windows.  More expensive, high-performance windows are available, but unnecessary to meet my goals. 

Please provide a reference showing that Pella windows need to be replaced every 10 years.  Also provide a statement concerning your commercial interest in the window industry. 

In your previous post, you provided costs for tempered glass, which is more expensive than standard window glass.  In this area, tempered glass is code for windows over bathtubs, and for windows close to the floor.  Why would you consider tempered glass for general window use? 

Passive Home Points:

* Homes with no exposed internal thermal mass should have south facing windows with a glass area of no more than 7% of the square footage
* Homes with exposed internal thermal mass can have up to 12% of the floor area in south-facing windows
* The passive solar home & windows must face within 15 degrees of due south to maximize solar gain in winter and minimize overheating in summer

Passive Solar Guide

I have 250 square feet of south glass, which accounts for almost 8% of the square footage of the home. I will also have an exposed concrete slab on the 1st floor and 2nd floor which will provide a lot of interior exposed thermal mass.


Passive House Directory

Passive House Windows

Posted By Lee Dodge on 19 Oct 2012 09:07 PM

Posted By michaeld on 19 Oct 2012 07:26 PM
Yeah, and you will probably be replacing those Pella windows 10 yrs from now, Lee Dodge.

You must sell Pella because you honk them all the time.

They aren't that nice, folks, the quality is pretty bad for the money.  Performance?  Nothing special.

Color me someone who thinks longevity and quality are equally important when it comes to "being green."

When you have to replace your pine windows in 10-15 years, can you really put much merit in a cost/benefit analysis.

You are incorrect.  I do not sell Pella windows, nor do I have any commercial interest in any window companies.  I mention Pella because those of the windows that I purchased for my house.  Windows must be matched to the local climate.  I happen to live in one of the two areas in the U.S. with the highest yearly solar insolation on a vertical surface, and the only one with a predominately heating environment.  (The other area with the highest insolation on a vertical surface is around Las Vegas, hardly heating-only.)  So high solar gain is important in my climate, and the windows that I chose have high solar gain for triple-pane windows. 

I think of Pella windows as a generic representation of middle-of-the-road, high-production windows available in the U.S.  I have demonstrated that these middle-of-the-road windows can be used as one part of a net-zero source energy design, and backed up that claim with measured energy data.  I do not have the experience to recommend Pella over any other brand of windows.  More expensive, high-performance windows are available, but unnecessary to meet my goals. 

Please provide a reference showing that Pella windows need to be replaced every 10 years.  Also provide a statement concerning your commercial interest in the window industry. 

In your previous post, you provided costs for tempered glass, which is more expensive than standard window glass.  In this area, tempered glass is code for windows over bathtubs, and for windows close to the floor.  Why would you consider tempered glass for general window use? 

Lee

Your comment, "windows must be matched to the local climate" is a pretty empty statement.  GLAZING needs to be matched to the climate, but lumping window into the equation only confuses people.

The only element of local climate I find applicable to your statement is I guess a pine window is acceptable in a climate where it rarely rains.  In my climate, however, Pella pine turns to sawdust within 10-15 yrs and I know this because our company replaces them all the time.

It bugs me to read you refer to your windows as "triple pane."  There is a difference between a bona fide tri pane insulated glass unit, and a double pane insulated glass unit (such as yours) with another pane of glass protecting the internal blinds.  The difference between "real" tri pane and your "triple pane" is typically the difference in a tenth of a u value point.  It's a HUGE difference.

Just about every window manufacturer out there now days worth their salt offers a wide variety of low e coatings.  Card 180, 272, 366, SB60, SB70, Sungate, Starfire, coatings from Guardian, etc...

Again, any manufacturer worth a damn offers something to increase or decrease SHGC and VT, lower or raise u value.  It really has little to do with the particular brand providing we are making an apples for apples GLAZING comparison.  Beyond that the only remaining salient element is air infiltration numbers, and I'm quite positive Pella is only average in that regard.  Nothing special.

Oh, and if all of your glazing is floor to ceiling, Lee, it will need to be tempered. With 1300+ sq. ft. of glass, I'm inclined to think a lot of that is floor to ceiling.

But of course I'm only speculating.

Posted By michaeld on 06 Nov 2012 12:26 PM
Your comment, "windows must be matched to the local climate" is a pretty empty statement.  GLAZING needs to be matched to the climate, but lumping window into the equation only confuses people.

The only element of local climate I find applicable to your statement is I guess a pine window is acceptable in a climate where it rarely rains.  In my climate, however, Pella pine turns to sawdust within 10-15 yrs and I know this because our company replaces them all the time.

The last time that I checked, the term "window" includes the glazing. So both the window material type and the glazing need to be matched to the desired performance in the local climate. As an example, the annual rainfall here is 11" per year, and the relative humidity outside currently is 19%, which is a pretty typical daytime value. A friend in town has wood windows on his house that are 49 years old with no sign of rot. So yes, climate makes a difference for the window material selection, and certainly makes a difference in the glazing selection.

So perhaps you should consider that your experience with certain brands of windows in your climate is not applicable to my climate, or to everyone's climate in general.

It bugs me to read you refer to your windows as "triple pane."  There is a difference between a bona fide tri pane insulated glass unit, and a double pane insulated glass unit (such as yours) with another pane of glass protecting the internal blinds.  The difference between "real" tri pane and your "triple pane" is typically the difference in a tenth of a u value point.  It's a HUGE difference.

The windows that I have consist of three panes of glass, two in one insulated glass unit (IGU), and a separate pane toward the inside of the housse from the IGU. Since they have three panes, they are called triple-pane windows. More importantly, earlier in this thread I specified the SHGC and U-value for the windows, which I consider the real performance criteria. The separate seals on the IGU and the single pane presumably improve the reliability of the sealing performance, but the spacing results in a relatively high U-value, as already discussed earlier in the thread. Since the U-value was specified, that discussion is over.

Just about every window manufacturer out there now days worth their salt offers a wide variety of low e coatings.  Card 180, 272, 366, SB60, SB70, Sungate, Starfire, coatings from Guardian, etc...

Again, any manufacturer worth a damn offers something to increase or decrease SHGC and VT, lower or raise u value.  It really has little to do with the particular brand providing we are making an apples for apples GLAZING comparison.  Beyond that the only remaining salient element is air infiltration numbers, and I'm quite positive Pella is only average in that regard.  Nothing special.

My experience in trying to purchase windows in this area was that almost all of the vendors wanted to provide their standard, low SHGC windows, which I consider poorly suited to this climate. So, even though lots of coatings exist, if one prefers high SHGC windows, you may have to make an extra effort to get them, and suffer through longer waiting periods for delivery.

You have been critial of a certain window brand, and accused me of being a paid rep. for that brand, which was a false assumption on your part. Since you have brought up the subject, I will ask again, do you represent a window brand or brands in your business?

I know Pella's triple pane windows (Designer Series) with the removable 3rd pane of glass for shades and/or grilles has been highly debated on whether or not it fits the scientific definition of a true triple pane window. I did some research and a lot of calling around to find out the answer to this question. Please don't attack me, the messenger, but here is what I was told:

By the pure scientific definition a true triple pane window must have three sealed panes around two sealed spacers. Pella's windows are really a double pane window with a quasi storm window with a removable shade window pane. Pella's third pane is not a sealed pane with 2 sealed spacers. Therefore by the strict definition, the Pella window is NOT a true triple pane window as it is not three sealed panes around two sealed spacers.

In addition, Pella's triple pane windows do not qualify for Passive House design because of their design and the performance numbers are lacking and they don't meet PH Standards.  PH Standards require an R-Value of R7 or better. They also seek a low U-value of < 0.20. Having a low air leakage rate of < 0.03

With that being said, I acknowledge that a Net Zero Energy home can be attained with Pella's windows. The windows serve a purpose for people who like having the blinds sitting within a pane of glass. They are not the best nor the worst window design. They are not the most expensive nor the least expensive.

That is what I was told is the definition of triple pane windows.

Posted By Lbear on 06 Nov 2012 09:55 PM
...snip...
By the pure scientific definition a true triple pane window must have three sealed panes around two sealed spacers.
...snip...

Since you have chosen the words "pure scientific," I assume that you would be willing to provide the reference to a referred technical journal article. Please provide that now.

Also, please note that I have never referred to the windows in question as "true triple pane windows," since I consider that terminology meaningless.

Posted By Lee Dodge on 06 Nov 2012 10:07 PM
Since you have chosen the words "pure scientific," I assume that you would be willing to provide the reference to a referred technical journal article. Please provide that now.

Also, please note that I have never referred to the windows in question as "true triple pane windows," since I consider that terminology meaningless.

Therein is the problem. There is no standard for triple pane windows here in the USA. The US standards in regards to window performance is about 10+ years behind Europe, Canada and Asia. The fact is that anyone attempting to achieve Passive House here in the USA must choose European or Canadian manufactured triple pane windows.

There is no standard for triple pane windows here in the USA. Theoretically you can install 2 removable storm panes on a single pane window and you can call them triple pane here in the USA and the FTC or DOE will not stop you. Being that the US has no standard for what makes or does not make a triple pane window, one has to seek information from European standards. According to European standards a triple pane window must have three sealed panes of glass with two sealed spacers. The Pella window in question does NOT meet that standard. A floating pane of glass that is not sealed and that does not have a sealed spacer is technically seen as a storm pane and does not meet European standards.

That then brings us to the performance #'s of US windows vs. European and Canadian windows.

So the "pure scientific definition" is not a supportable statement. I have no interest in continuing the argument about "real triple pane windows" which has been discussed ad nauseum on this site previously. It is a junk argument.

The REAL thing to discuss is the technical specifications of the window performance, the solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC), the thermal conductivity (U-factor), the infiltration rate (which is usually not tested in the U.S.), the visible transmission, etc. Those parameters are measurable metrics of the window, and can be used to predict and understand window performance.

Posted By Lee Dodge on 07 Nov 2012 12:01 AM
So the "pure scientific definition" is not a supportable statement. I have no interest in continuing the argument about "real triple pane windows" which has been discussed ad nauseum on this site previously. It is a junk argument.

The REAL thing to discuss is the technical specifications of the window performance, the solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC), the thermal conductivity (U-factor), the infiltration rate (which is usually not tested in the U.S.), the visible transmission, etc. Those parameters are measurable metrics of the window, and can be used to predict and understand window performance.

It is a supportive definition. In Europe a triple pane window is recognized as a window with three sealed panes of glass with two sealed spacers. In the USA they have no standard and anything and everything can go, including storm windows and removable panes which are not sealed and do not carry sealed spacers. The definition is clear and simple; three sealed panes of glass with two sealed spacers. By the US not having a standard definition, it has created the open void that any manufacturer can sell and distribute a "triple pane" window that is basically a dual pane with an operable storm pane and will perform like a dual pane window. Pella's third window pane in their blind series is an unsealed storm pane.

As you mentioned, now is where the real data comes into play. The NFRC method as established in 1989 is outdated. American window energy performance testing and modeling assume a delta-T of 70°F. In Europe a much lower delta-T is assumed for window energy performance modeling of 35°F. Even in a reasonably cold Northern European climate, this much more closely reflects the average delta-T during the heating season. US windows don’t perform as well as European counterparts. Here in the USA we are 10-15 years behind the times in regards to window testing and performance. The European delta T of 32°F - 68°F makes a lot more sense to use as a standard for insulating value than the 0°F - 70°F for NFRC. How many hours does your average US window sit at 0 degrees? The Euro delta-T allows for wider spacing in the glazing units.

European or Canadian triple pane windows can perform with a VT .70, SHGC .58, U-value .15, and a have a 0.03 cfm air leakage rate. While here in the States we are still selling windows with U-Values of 0.35 as high performance windows and leak air at rates of 0.30 cfm.

Here is an upcoming conference that is attempting to get US window manufacturers to get with the times and start building and selling better windows:

PHI Workshop

The Swiss began to utilize triple pane technology back in the late 1970's. We here in the States are still installing windows that have air leakage rates of 0.30 cfm and U-Values of 0.35. They consider these windows high performing windows. The NFRC standards need to be re-written and the standards tightened. Double Pane window performance has been maxed out (besides Serious Windows' heat mirror technology) and it's time to advance forward and utilize triple pane technology. The IECC code for windows need to be changed to allow high SHGC for windows in northern climates. This once again can be achieved with triple pane technology, having a high SHGC while still attaining a low U-Value of < 0.20, the best of both worlds.

In the end that is what it is all about. Utilizing technologies that improve the building envelope and reduce energy usage. Hopefully the US window manufacturers are seeing that people are willing to spend their money overseas or up in Canada and ship over foreign windows in order to get better made windows. Sadly we are behind the times here in the US and hopefully conferences like the above workshop will get a spark going to start making better windows.

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