LED lighting
Last Post 31 May 2011 02:07 PM by Dana1. 105 Replies.
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Bruce FreyUser is Offline
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18 Mar 2009 08:10 AM
Posted By JinMTVT on 02/10/2009 10:21 PM
Alucobond.com ( expensive..but the coating is almost unscratchable )
alubond.com ( rolled in usa...easy to scratch ..but prices are competitive with chinese products of inferior quality..and NAFTA :)

maybe other manufacturers

If you are going to use any of the aluminum sandwich panels (it does not matter which mfgr), please be aware that they have "fire rated" and "non-fire rated" material.  I would not recommend the use of "non fire rated" aluminum sandwich panels anywhere in or on an occupied building. 

Bruce


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18 Mar 2009 03:09 PM
Posted By Bruce Frey on 03/18/2009 8:10 AM
Posted By JinMTVT on 02/10/2009 10:21 PM
Alucobond.com ( expensive..but the coating is almost unscratchable )
alubond.com ( rolled in usa...easy to scratch ..but prices are competitive with chinese products of inferior quality..and NAFTA :)

maybe other manufacturers

If you are going to use any of the aluminum sandwich panels (it does not matter which mfgr), please be aware that they have "fire rated" and "non-fire rated" material.  I would not recommend the use of "non fire rated" aluminum sandwich panels anywhere in or on an occupied building. 

Bruce

With the aluminum skin being only 0.020" thick I wouldn't count too much on it's heat-sinking capacity either (maybe if you bonded the LED dies directly to the aluminum... ;-) )

You'd need a better cross-section than that to move much heat.  (To be sure, it's better than half-pound copper pour on a G10 or FR4 PCB, but it's not exactly heat-sink material- they're advertising that stuff for its INSULATION characteristics, after all...)


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18 Mar 2009 04:45 PM
Posted By Dana1 on 03/18/2009 3:09 PM

With the aluminum skin being only 0.020" thick I wouldn't count too much on it's heat-sinking capacity either (maybe if you bonded the LED dies directly to the aluminum... ;-) )

You'd need a better cross-section than that to move much heat.  (To be sure, it's better than half-pound copper pour on a G10 or FR4 PCB, but it's not exactly heat-sink material- they're advertising that stuff for its INSULATION characteristics, after all...)



Heat sink/insulatiion values are not the issue.......the non-fire rated aluminum sandwich material burns!

Bruce


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21 Apr 2009 04:24 PM
Hi guys !!! My name is mark, and this is my first reply. 

Answer: COSTCO

They sell replacement LED bulbs for about $12 here in California.  I bought one to replace a standard bulb that continuously burned since I figured LED would be more resilient.  The light is a very bright white/blue/green which at first is annoying, but it does grow on you.  The light is not warm at all and would look better if the bulb had a slight red tint to it.  I am considering buying a gel from the camera store, but that won't happen anytime soon, since I am lazy.

The energy saved is about 80%, and they run much cooler.

If you are going to do this, be ready to change all your bulbs at once, or else it will look a bit strange since the standard bulbs are yellow and the LED bulbs are blue.

I think that another good idea would be to install the light switched that turn on when you enter a room and off when you leave.


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21 Apr 2009 04:33 PM
markever;

the technlogy already exists for LEDs to be produced in any color or hue that we want, mfg.s now need to step up to the consumer demand


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22 Apr 2009 08:54 AM
Posted By cmkavala on 04/21/2009 4:33 PM
markever;

the technlogy already exists for LEDs to be produced in any color or hue that we want, mfg.s now need to step up to the consumer demand

Any hue, sure, but at what efficiency?

 All white LEDs are built on blue LED technology using phosphors for the color conversion & mix, and it's a lossy conversion.  The most efficient white LEDs are on the very blue end of the scale, taking advantage of the fundamental emmission and thinner/fewer phosphors.  Warm-white versions with high CRIs still have lousy efficiency compared to fluorescent technology, (although they beat halogen efficiencies.) 

The notion that markever is willing to cut the luminous efficiency of his harsh-blue LED in half with a gel in an attempt for a more comfortable color-temperature feels anti-green to me.  Indeed, for the level of useful light rendered with a crummy blue LED screened with a gel he probably would get better luminous-efficiency using a halogen & no gel.

When the color temperature, CRI, efficiency, & price are there the consumer demand will take care of itself.  Give it another half-decade or so to give the performance a chance to catch up with the hype.


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22 Apr 2009 09:39 AM
Any word on the new, supposedly more efficient, incandescent bulbs?


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22 Apr 2009 01:34 PM
Dana1

The amount of light that is absorbed by the gel depends on the opacity of the gel.  If I use a STRONG RED gel then that will make my light RED, which is not what I want.

If I use a gel that is just slightly red or yellow, then I am actually not using more energy at all, so it is not any less green. 

The result is just that I will have SLIGHTLY less light, which is fine with me, since the LED is much brighter than I need it to be.

Either way, I am using less energy than a regular bulb.


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22 Apr 2009 02:36 PM


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22 Apr 2009 02:40 PM


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23 Apr 2009 02:56 PM
Posted By markever on 04/22/2009 1:34 PM
Dana1

The amount of light that is absorbed by the gel depends on the opacity of the gel.  If I use a STRONG RED gel then that will make my light RED, which is not what I want.

If I use a gel that is just slightly red or yellow, then I am actually not using more energy at all, so it is not any less green. 

The result is just that I will have SLIGHTLY less light, which is fine with me, since the LED is much brighter than I need it to be.

Either way, I am using less energy than a regular bulb.

It's less about the overall opacity of the gel than it is about the gel's opacity to the color that you're screening out. If half or more of the luminous energy is blue  (likely, given your description), then a gel that's capable of "warming" the appearance of the light to a lower color temperature has to be opaque to most of the blue. 

If you started out with say 40 lumens/watt efficiency (on the high end for cheapy LED-bulb efficiencies) 20 lumens of blue, 20 lumens of "warmer" color, and you block 75% of the blue to warm it up, you're down to 5 lumens of blue, 20 lumens of other colors, for 25lumens/watt total LED+gel efficiency, which is about where higher-efficiency halogens live (with FAR better color rendering!)

You can always use less energy by turning them off or dimming them, or going with a tiny low-wattage nite-lite but if it's a credible-usable light level that your after, even bottom-of-the barrel low-wattage compact fluorescents are over 50lumens/watt efficiency these days (about where the highest-efficiency not-so-cheap LED replacement bulbs are.)  If it's reasonably high AMBIENT light level you're looking for, electronic-ballasted straight-tube fluorescents run 80-120lumens/watt (50-80lm/w with fixture-losses, if the fixtures use diffusers, but much higher in low-loss fixtures using specular aluminum.). 

If it's just a tiny to moderate amount of light you need, you get better color rendering & efficiency and literally twice the light out of 2-5W cold-cathode CFLs than bottom-of-the barrel but more expensive LEDs.  I must have a dozen sockets in my house stuffed with cold-cathode bulbs in that power range in my house- they're nice! If I found LEDs that filled those functions with higher efficiency & better color rendering I'd buy 'em, but they don't exist... yet.  For higher ambient and task lighting I let linear-fluorescents do the heavy lifting.

Don't confuse glare with brightness either.  Glare is a function of the contrast in light intensity relative to the field around it.  LEDs are by-nature quite glarey since all of the light is being emitted from a very small area- clear-bulb incandescents and halogens have similar issues, which is why lampshades & diffusers were invented (at a net loss in overall efficiency.)  True lighting efficiency will likely come when they work the longevity kinks out of organic LED (OLED) technologies, and you can generate high ambient light levels from glowing sheets rather than high-intensity points of light. With lower glare the light becomes more useful and you can even achive the same seeing function at lower lux levles, since your pupils will open up a bit when the glare is gone.

Total lumen output per watt of input is the only first-order credible metric for lighting efficiency.  But poor color-rendering can reduce efficacy- you can't see as well, even at high lumen-output with a color rendering index under 50, so CRI counts too. Cheap LEDs lose there too (many are unrated but more expensive ones can be pretty good- some even hit the 90 range.)  This is the typical range of luminous-efficiency that's commercially available on retrofit LEDs:

http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/25_3652

I can't imagine doing much more than low-level accent lighting with the 44lumen R20 spot (no CRI rating) like this:

http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/25_3652_2385

But I can read printed matter somewhat comfortably under a 3W 120lumen 82CRI cold cathode R20 flood (5W/200lumens is noticably better). And 2 watt 90lumen cold-cathode A-bulbs are more than enough light for nighttime stairway and alcove lighting (even under lampshades), and aren't source- restricted to a 10-40 degree beam the way most LEDs are.

At 1/10th the price I'd be all over the Cree LR6 for recessed R30 cans in hard-to-reach hard-to-reach places:

http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/25_3652_2382

The LR6 is closest thing I've seen yet to a true ambient lighting source based on discrete LED technology.  They're not super-high efficiency, but they're not bad. Self-ballasted CFL-equivalents run in the 60-65lm/watt range instead of 54lm/w, but they'll burn out in 5-15 years and I'm a lazy sucker... :-)  -as long as it's not abused by heat or line voltage noise the LR6 would likely outlive ME.  (They're under $90 at some web-discounters- I'm keeping my eye on 'em.)

For now the tiny replacement-bulb type LEDs are best used for tiny spot or accent lighting- they're pretty sucky and lower at most other lighting tasks than competing fluorescent, CFL, and HID technologies.  But if your alternative is to use an incandescent A-bulb, use LEDs & gels, candles, whatever it takes-  almost ANYTHING is more efficient than generic incandescents!  There may be a small-but-burgeoning present for LED lighting, but it's long-anticipated future could be huge someday...  By the time my CFLs and cold-cathodes all burn out LED technology may have finally, TRUELY come of age.  If they ever hit over 100lm/w true-efficiency (measured in line voltage assemblies rather than bare-die-on-test-bench "wow" press release type numbers) I'd buy-in even at  $0.15/lumen pricing and retire my fluorescents. 

Until then I'll continue view them for what they are- mostly moderately higher efficiency halogen-spot replacements, which is way behind where the current hype puts 'em.


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28 Jun 2009 01:51 PM
Buyer beware! All LED's are not created equal. one of the best sources for acuarate information on LED's http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ssl/ You can check out the Caliper program which evaluates alot of the LED products on the market. I would be highly skeptical of any LED product presently selling for $30.00 to replace a conventional light bulb.


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28 Jun 2009 03:53 PM
LEDs are overrated in terms of efficiency and very expensive prototype LED bulbs can equal the efficiency of T5 fluorescents. Any LED bulb for home lighting you can buy will be quite a bit worse.



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29 Jun 2009 01:33 PM
Posted By jonr on 06/28/2009 3:53 PM
LEDs are overrated in terms of efficiency and very expensive prototype LED bulbs can equal the efficiency of T5 fluorescents. Any LED bulb for home lighting you can buy will be quite a bit worse.


True-that, but up until recently that was only with much poorer color-rendering than T5s at those efficiencies as well.  Looking at it from a lighting EFFICACY point of view rather than the raw efficiency, they have been typically worse than their fluorescent-technology counterparts.  But things are changing:

The Cree LR6 is the first product that equals or beats even crummy self-ballasted compact-fluorescent technology on efficacy & efficiency (which it does, if barely.)  It has a way to go before it'll hit T5-HO efficiency, but the rate of improvement is still pretty rapid on LEDs- I'm hopeful.  Between optics losses, phosphor inefficiencies (necessary for reasonable color-rendering), and AC-DC conversion efficiency , and the critical requirement for active cooling, it will take a ~200+lumens/watt  benchtop proto to achieve anything like 100-120lumens/watt T5 efficiency in a ambient lighting luminaire or retrofit-bulb assembly. 

Some of the noo-improoved CREE XLamp series achieve better than T5 efficiencies (measured as die-on-heat-sink), with a color rendering indices of 75-80 (better T5 CRIs are ~85+, but most standard-stock is only low 80s.):

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp%20Lighting%20Class.pdf

There are already some pretty-good low output R20/PAR20 and MR-16 assemblies based on these approaching twice the efficiency of the earlier crop of LED-retrofits, and are rapidly approaching T8-efficiency.  (For the high efficiency high-reliability flashlight & hiker-headlamp market they were already a no-brainer.)  LEDs OWN (or should own very shortly) the low-power spot lamp market at already pretty good efficiencies, but the higher power assemblies necessary for ambient lighting are still difficult to pull off.

This li'l vidi gives a hint as to some of the technology hurdles for turning on-the-bench high power LED efficiency into reliable retrofit-assemblies:

http://tinyurl.com/mnx63w

As anybody who has designed LED based illumination systems knows, temperature control is a huge part of keeping the LED working in an efficient temperature zone, and a large fraction of the assembly cost, and in higher power systems, a significant fraction the power-budget.  Higher power LEDs means more power in keeping it cool, which adds up to lower assembly effiency. (Those tiny piezo blowers in the Nat-Semi vidi look like it can take down the cooling power fraction by quite a bit- higher output reasonable reliability 75+lm/w PAR20s & MR16s may be showing up very soon!)



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29 Jun 2009 07:01 PM
LED's are so fundamentally different from every othr light source that old standards such as CRI (color rendering index)are being revised to give a more acurate measurment of light qaulity for LED's. The best white light LED's being produced today have far better color qaulity than a standard light bulb and are even comparable to halogens. Quality LED's actually produce a closer spectrum to natural sunlight than other products. The biggest challange facing the industry is the lack of understanding of how many levels of qaulity exist with LED's. The heart of an LED is grown like crystals and than sliced into many layers. some layers produce better qaulity LED's than others. A good start to finding a good qaulity LED is to choose from one of the five major players. Nichia, Cree, Osram, GE or Lumileds. A few other company's like Samsung seem to be producing a qaulity LED but the verdict is still out.


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29 Jun 2009 08:28 PM
Samsung doesn’t produce it's own LED's although they use one of the companies listed above manufacturing process’s. Samsung built a plant for this other company to produce LED for their products and works with many of their top people as well.

It's sort of like saying cars are bad because some break really fast, some are slow and some are big and good for moving things. LED's and their manufactures have many of the same issues. Right now some manufactures are using LED that weren't meant to be used the way they are and failing early giving LED's a bad name.

In time LED's will get there.


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31 Mar 2010 10:32 PM
Hi,
I like to support domestic manufacturing and am interested in LED lighting, so when I heard about President Obama touring an LED manufacturing facility in North Carolina, I sent the company an e-mail.  I received a prompt reply from a Cree customer service rep who told me the entire LR6 family and the LR24 are made in North Carolina.

I don't know how much they cost, but if your priorities include supporting domestic jobs and manufacturing, give them a look...

www.creeledlighting.com

Regards,
Tom


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15 Apr 2010 10:03 PM
I just got 2 ARRAY PAR30 LED bulbs to test out. They aren't cheap but the color quality and brightness are amazing.

I tried out their new QuantumLED which has a CRI of 91 at 2700K and the standard 3000K PAR30 with CRI of 80 - both are rated at only 7.8 watts - but give off as much as light as a 50-75 watt incandescent. They are one of the most efficient LED's on the market. The quality of the light is as good as a warm incandescent bulb and they are also fully dimmable.

I would highly recommend them. The only issue is the up-front cost - they are rate to last or 10 year (at 12hr/day) so you'll probably never buy another light bulb but they are still around $80/each -ouch.

You can find out more info about them at: www.arraylighting.com


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16 Apr 2010 05:54 PM
Posted By [email protected] on 15 Apr 2010 10:03 PM
I just got 2 ARRAY PAR30 LED bulbs to test out. They aren't cheap but the color quality and brightness are amazing.

I tried out their new QuantumLED which has a CRI of 91 at 2700K and the standard 3000K PAR30 with CRI of 80 - both are rated at only 7.8 watts - but give off as much as light as a 50-75 watt incandescent. They are one of the most efficient LED's on the market. The quality of the light is as good as a warm incandescent bulb and they are also fully dimmable.

I would highly recommend them. The only issue is the up-front cost - they are rate to last or 10 year (at 12hr/day) so you'll probably never buy another light bulb but they are still around $80/each -ouch.

You can find out more info about them at: www.arraylighting.com

The specs for the Array PAR30 Quantum specifies 477 lumens. 

A 50 watt PAR 30 halogen of similar color temp & photometrics puts out ~650-700 lumens.

A 75 watt halogen PAR 30s put out ~1000-1100 lumens.

Bottom of the line non-halogen incandescent 75 watt R30 floods put out over 800 (at a lower color temp).

Bottom line, it's output more like a 35 watt halogen than any 50-75W incandescent R-bulb.  This isn't as bad as the worst of the "...as much light as...." exaggeration found in the LED lighting industry, but it's as least as bad as the worst excesses of CFL marketeers.

It has the CRI, but still less than half the luminosity & efficiency necessary to meet the L-Prize PAR 38 entry requirements.  That day will come...

Still, it's beating the middle-of the road self-ballasted CFL R-30s on lumens/watt efficiency, and beating the BEST of them on color rendering.  And for apps that call for the sharp-edged shadows of a halogen it's probably very VERY nice compared to a CFL.


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01 May 2010 08:50 AM
Posted By cmkavala on 19 Oct 2007 12:21 PM
LED's are not yet practical from a financial standpoint, but I expect that the technology is advancing quickly enough that is would make sense in a couple of years when costs become more competitive just like it did with CFLs

I hear you. But the poor suckers like me who are building now have to settle for CFL. But OLEDs may be the future for large area lighting for residential and commercial applications. Check out the link below. (Pretty Impressive) Make sure you view the video. The energy savings devices are really starting to catch on and there is a lot of serious research and development going on. Who knows what we will be talking about for lighting in the very near future? 

http://www.oled-display.net/oled-lighting


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