Funny how doubling the price of fuel will focus the mind...and investment.

The man who builds in stone is a true philanthropist.

My grandparents came from Switzerland and my kin there still live in homesteads a few hundred years old now. Do they do this out of nostalgia (sense of heritage), necessity (lack of building lots) or pragmatism (inheritance is easier than work)?

So if the Europeans are smarter than us, why have they gone in the tank economically? Must we all suffer to save the planet? Who can afford our last-forever buildings?

My industry is proud to be 20 years behind technology and sadly my clients are mostly wealthy. It is hard to fight the free market...but then it is a sales job and there is no easy path to perfection.

What is the point of having a vapor barrier (insulating foam boards) outside of the ZIP sheathing air/water barrier?

I would re-examine your plan to build a wall that cannot dry to the exterior. See here (figures 8 and 9) for more info.

Posted By SCIP Panels on 16 Dec 2012 10:32 AM
As I said I walked around town and the hillsides during my time off. I was there taking a class to be certified in Geothermal. I went in hardware stores,lumber yards and construction sites both in my spare time and as part of the class. Talk about detail, the options for doors, windows and fire resistant security shutters I never knew existed. Or that thermal mass building is not alternative but main stream. Lastly I later found out the town was famous for a narrow shingle that was two inches wide with about two inches showing. A round bottom that comes to a point. As I was walking to the town center with the only other American in the class I mentioned how amazing the shingling was. The other guy was just as sure the shingles came in sheets. I knew without pulling a shingle I knew I was looking at old workmanship. My Dutch Irish Great grandfather and grandfather built the house my mother was born and raised in. We use to build more homes built to last we still do, some of us. Sadly it is not the norm to build to last. Home building took the same path US cars took to last past the warranty, just barley. Auto industry turned itself around so can the building industry. I suspect most in this forum build to last. ICF and SIP both if properly weatherized and clad will be here for our grandchildren's children as will SCIP that is already clad in Cement. Concrete buildings put up by the Romans are still standing and in use.

The Swiss invented triple pane glazing back in the 1980's and the Germans perfected the framing. Today the best glazing spacer is from Switzerland and Europe has some of the best energy efficient window designs in the world. When I looked at a European Tilt&Turn window in person, I was blown away with the quality of the windows. There was nothing in the US market that even compared.

In Europe masonry structures are the norm. If it wasn't for WWII, all of those structures would still be standing today. I was fortunate to visit and stay in a European home that wasn't razed by the war and the 3rd generation family was living in it. The same with Israeli buildings. They build them out of masonry and wood frame buildings are almost non-existent in Israel. They build with the intention to last 100's of years, not decades like here in the States. When researching about energy efficient building practices, one thing became clear, Europe leads the way in energy builds and we are learning from them. Go to the GBA site and you will see that the top U.S. green builders & advisers take their technology tips from European manufacturers & builders.

Buildings that can last for hundreds of years is more a concept which is completely foreign here in the States. Wood structures can last a long time but they require perfect detailing to keep out the moisture & pests out and 98% of builders don't do proper details. Wood framing members then get wet and if lucky, they dry out, but even so, this constant water saturation takes its toll and causes the wood to rot and fail structurally. Speaking of which, the 4 year old "new" home I am currently in started letting in water through the wall after a light 1/2" of rain last night. I'm going to have to rip open the exterior wall and repair the poor flashing job these builders do on these homes. Hopefully the wood members are not compromised as that will require ripping out and re-framing. I am NOT looking forward to doing this, especially around Christmas.

That's how they build new homes; cheap, quick and disposable. Hopefully our mindset changes out here but I am doubtful because most people only look at what their ROI is and not the bigger picture of how it affects the planet, long term energy use, and the future generations who have to deal with the global problems that will face them.

Posted By jonr on 16 Dec 2012 12:34 PM

What is the point of having a vapor barrier (insulating foam boards) outside of the ZIP sheathing air/water barrier?

I would re-examine your plan to build a wall that cannot dry to the exterior. See here for more info.

You are referring to wood framed structures and not masonry, correct?

Yes. The examples use brick and stucco exteriors but the principles and the article also apply to wood siding.

(So if the Europeans are smarter than us, why have they gone in the tank economically?) My points was not who's smarter, everyone has their own idea regarding that. Smart or Economic necessity because of the costs of heating and cooling. Is not smart to build better?. Should we still be driving model As?

You are referring to wood framed structures and not masonry, correct?

Yes.

Jonr

Jonr I am curious what are your thoughts regarding breathing to inside? Never no way or ??

(http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/high-r-value-wall-assemblies/high-r-wall-12-exterior-insulation-finish-systems-eifs-wall-construction?topic=resources/high-r-value-wall-assemblies )Wall Construction Enclosures That Work Download.pdf 613.8 kB High R-Value Wall Assembly-02: 2x6 Advanced Frame Wall Construction Sorry used faces to break up post.

As for people interested in paying more for SCIP, SIP or ICFs it small compared true. Buy the interest and number of contacts is quickly changing just in what is coming across my desk this fall is more than I can do next year.
True till money is in the bank you really do not know. The last SCIP system home I told the Owner I could not build a wood home for what he was going to barrow. A year later out of the blue I get a call loan is approved for amount I said it would take can you still do it.

what are your thoughts regarding breathing to inside?

Depends on the climate and on what R value you want to get to. Not so great as the only direction in a high R wall in a very cold climate.

As I am trying to achieve a high r-value (8300 HDD climate) of 50+, I must add EPS foam boards outside of the ZIP sheathing. From what I understand, that can warm the air enough to minimize condensation formation on the sheathing, which by the way is a water and air barrier (ZIP System). Therefore it is my understanding that I do not require a vapor barrier on the warm side of the wall as this will create a moisture sandwich within the wall.

Getting back to the original topic. Here is my suggestion for an r50 wall From the outside: siding (can even be stuco or adhered masonry) , 1/4" insulating rain screen/drainage plane ( Greenguard DC14)  (r1) , WRB (housewrap), 3/4" fiberboard (r2), 2x4 wall framing 24 OC cavities filled with rock-wool bats (r15), 5 1/2" space between double stud walls filled with rock-wool bats (r23), iinner (structural) stud wall 2x4 24" OC sheathed on outer side with 1/2" plywood (r0.5) detailed as primary air barrier with liquid vapor barrier material, cavity s filled with rock-wool (r15), overall cavity is r56.5, framing is r33.5 If the framing factor is 20% (easy) whole wall r will be right at r50 with drywall. This wall allows drying both ways and puts the primary air & vapor barrier near the ideal place in heating climates. It also gives an interior "service cavity" to make air sealing more durable and easier.      Cost it out!  The only foam is the DC14.  Properly fitted Roxul bats are the most economical DIY insulation.  Unfortunately the outer walls need to be erected without sheathing then after the insulation is installed, the fiberboard & outward construction can proceed.

Solving the wall puzzle is only part of the problem, the floor framing, if it supports both walls is a substantial 'thermal bridge'. This quality of a wall needs a double wall foundation with insulation between the foundation walls. and the floor which is supported by the inner wall of the foundation ending at the outer face of the inner exterior wall. meaning the outer stud wall is taller than the inner and there is insulation all around the 'rim joist'

With high r walls the windows and doors become the dominant heat conveyors so they need to be as good as possible or the effect of the super insulation is LOST. 

It bears repeating:  Comprehensive air sealing of a well defined primary air barrier is the most important aspect of low loss building construction!

This is a excellent point. With the typical percentage load of windows it could make comfort and performance goals hard to achieve.

> 2" R-board (R-12) with taped seams, Zip wall sheathing

Given your high R wall, climate and good windows (allowing healthy indoor humidity levels), it takes a lot of foam to make a "no exterior drying" wall work. But you don't need any foam at all. Did you read the reference?

You can also look at Passive House wall designs such as this (no foam although climate is different).

The decision to use a double stud wall is usually taken to minimize the cost of insulation, with air permeable insulation, (fiberglass cellulose or rock wool for example) to the desired level. A consequence of the choice of double stud systems and air permeable insulation is that drying to the outside is REQUIRED to avoid moisture problems (ROT & MOLD) ! To achieve drying to the outside, ONLY moisture permeable materials must be used outside the "primary air barrier" ! The primary air barrier can be arr tight drywall or some other layer in the inner third of the insulated wall. Materials are rated in "PERMS" for moisture permeability with higher numbers indicating more permeable.
To achieve adequate drying no material rated below 1 perm should be used, this EXCLUDES ALL OSB! and barely allows plywood. Truly the best sheathing for the outside of a double stud assembly is fiberboard  (15+ perms typically) which also happens to be the most economical. The outside of the fiberboard is best covered by a house wrap with a high perm rating. ZIP sheathing on a double stud wall spells DISASTROUS MOISTURE PROBLEMS! Adding more moisture impermeable layers, like foam makes it even worse!

liebler - i like some of your wall ideas. how about build the structural house on the inner half of the foundation wall - supporting walls, floors, etc, then add the 9' or 10' exterior partition. you'd have very little thermal bridging anywhere. the the question becomes do you need the foundation under it? especially if you insulate the exterior of the foundation with foamglass- inorganic & impervious to almost everything.

no material below 1 perm should be used, this EXCLUDES ALL OSB!

7/16 OSB is about 2 perms at 50% humidity (which is what you care about). But I agree, more would be even better.

The foam board on the outside gives additional insulation and a thermal break cutting the thermal bridging of the studs.