right. these are guys that have been doing things the same way since their grandfather started in business. Understanding the reasons for change is hard. At some point, after they see the results they start to "get it". We had a mason installing cultured stone at a new build a few weeks ago who was amazed that we were heating the 1900 SF house (in 0o weather) with two electric 1500 watt heaters.

the ultimate New American Home.

That's pretty funny. You have to "register" to see the actual details on the home.
What have I told you about shilling? Now, you're trying to collect information on users here?

I do have a question, though. Is it just an accepted fact that you need to have every light in the house turned on for a picture like that? Just wonderin' for the future.....

Posted By Bob I on 13 Mar 2014 08:45 AM
right. these are guys that have been doing things the same way since their grandfather started in business. Understanding the reasons for change is hard. At some point, after they see the results they start to "get it". We had a mason installing cultured stone at a new build a few weeks ago who was amazed that we were heating the 1900 SF house (in 0o weather) with two electric 1500 watt heaters.

Change can be for the better or Worst .... In this day and age, your grandfathers would be ashamed of this generation being so naive.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 13 Mar 2014 09:20 AM

the ultimate New American Home.

That's pretty funny. You have to "register" to see the actual details on the home.
What have I told you about shilling? Now, you're trying to collect information on users here?

I do have a question, though. Is it just an accepted fact that you need to have every light in the house turned on for a picture like that? Just wonderin' for the future.....

You are a very good example....

So a 7,000 square foot home that cost over $2 million dollars is the standard for the new 2014 American home?

Maybe for the 1% of the population that have millions of dollars to burn but for the rest of us we are trying to build reasonably priced and efficient homes.

Apparently that is the goal for the national home builder's association, but definitely not for most of their members. go figure.

It was designed for Multi-generational Living style.....

So instead of sending your parents off to a stinking nursing home like you did, you house them and take care of them.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 13 Mar 2014 09:20 AM

the ultimate New American Home.

That's pretty funny. You have to "register" to see the actual details on the home.
What have I told you about shilling? Now, you're trying to collect information on users here?

I do have a question, though. Is it just an accepted fact that you need to have every light in the house turned on for a picture like that? Just wonderin' for the future.....

You can watch the 5-minute video without registering.

There's nothing in it about the thermal performance or mechanical systems that support the load, but plenty of shots of the de-luxe spa baths and dual-head gusher showers, etc, didn't look like "energy sippers delight". The only real "green" evident was the pile o' cash it must have taken to build the thing, and the fact that it's essentially multi-same-family,  which arguably leads to lower surface area/load per-person, as long as they fully populate it. The architect who designed it seems pretty impressed with it though (as he should be, if he got paid!). I'd curious to see where HE lives though.

Nice house, but has nothing to do with how most of us non-ultimate US-'mericans are ever gonna live though.

OK looking out the windows in the vidi it looks like it's  in AZ or NV or someplace in the SW, and built with a lot o' stone & other high thermal mass construction materials which would moderate the cooling loads and high diurnal temperature swings, and can the heating/cooling can be served up by a single GreenSpeed, so?  I wonder what the construction cost per square foot (or per occupant) averages too...

By no means is it a energy sippers delight  .....LMAO

I can only can assume they choose a ducted system because of the size and to help keep temperatures more in balance (Lots of glass) and also to keep it from looking like a cheap motel.

Though most of our work is in hydronics we still do some tin. The modern furnace is NOT like grandpa's. In fact it didn't exist when I was born.

Again, in the 70's the first generation gas-fired condensing furnace was sent to us. It didn't work. In the late 80's as hydronics people in the US are a little slow, the condensing boiler. It worded sometimes.

In Minneapolis and St.Paul, where you must be have a Licensed Master for Warm Air, Refrigeration, Steam and Hot Water, Plumbing and Oil Burners, we must produce a heat load (block) for any new house, addition or replacement of a heating or cooling appliance. We must also tape or caulk all duct work, not heard of until 10 years ago. ECM fans, modulating burner, setback thermostats. Not my grandfather's by a long shot.Nothing as elaborate as asking a client how low they would like the back bedroom temp to go as jonr suggests.

We do this regularly, but the "average hvac installer" is just that, and will not have, nor use, any heat load program. The kind of HVAC work, both ducted and ductless, must be installed by "above average" firms. Naturally, any passive house style home would require the same.

"Reasonably priced and efficient". Reasonable is not a technical term. For now, you have to pick one unless you are happy with what most would call a very small house; see the UK for small. As Dana points out; "There's nothing in it about the thermal performance or mechanical systems that support the load" I know; BORING. But most people just don't care. I have been trying to persuade them since Jimmy Carter was in office.



The answer is evolution, not revolution my friends. LEED is unfortunately more about making money than being GREEN. Passive House has more credibility, but it will take a cultural change to progress from stick built R-19 homes to passive house heated with one 1/2 ton mini-split. My pedestrian remodel used double that for 2100 sq.ft.

With all this name calling, unfortunately typical around here, the point is lost in all the high blood. That is,if you can convince the client to spend enough to reach the passive house standard, or any reasonable facsimile thereof, you won't have to worry about any nasty old-fashioned scorched-air furnaces, since they wouldn't work very well in the homes you describe.

It is all about cost and people building new homes know it from the architect on down.

http://www.tbp.org/pubs/Features/Su11Bell.pdf

So a 7,000 square foot home that cost over $2 million dollars is the standard for the new 2014 American home?

Well, it is beautiful and I think it's safe to say everyone would want one. Didn't someone say what the energy cost was?

Could not find nothing on a energy analysis, and I doubt there was much of goal set-forth by the architects for a energy target other than energystar/leed manufactures paying kickbacks to the architect or owner to call for specific products in there spec's. If you notice their are 30 sponsors and they all payed for the advertisement one way or another.

Mitsubishi obviously didn't drop enough on the table....$$........$$$.... Carrier

R75 walls? /me fell over.....

Who the heck would want to clean 7000 sf of house?

Who wants to clean 1400 sf of house? ;-)

A lot of people would not care to live in a 7000 SF house. More like a hotel. And as for heating costs, if you have to ask...
These are built strickly to show off materials, but have little relationship with everyday life, or typical builders. Kind of like the NAHB.

Posted By ricky_005 on 13 Mar 2014 06:57 PM
By no means is it a energy sippers delight  .....LMAO

I can only can assume they choose a ducted system because of the size and to help keep temperatures more in balance (Lots of glass) and also to keep it from looking like a cheap motel.

More than just the yards & yards of glass, the place just plain sprawls. And with the 3 different living units intentionally walled & doored off for privacy & isolation, which isn't very conducive to point-source heating & cooling. It might be do-able with 3-6 ductless heads but given the lengths of the refrigerant runs that it would take for a single compressor it would almost certainly need to be individual minis, not a multi-split, in which case the Greenspeed would be cheaper than ductless.  Only a variable-speed air handler would keep the duct noise low enough to maintain the luxury-suite feel.

Still, if they can heat & cool it adequately with just one GreenSpeed it means it has to be fairly high performance low-gain glass.  Looking at the gusher showers & deep Jacuzzi's it's quite possible that the water heating bill matches the HVAC bill on total energy use- that's if anybody really lives there, and at the  full occupancy/capacity intended by the architect.

I don't quite get what that glass-encased gas-burner thing was about- in that climate it's just another load for the air conditioning 3/4 of the year, and could probably cover half their space heating load without the GreenSpeed.  OK, so it's pretty dancing flames and a some mood-lighting, a decorative bit, but ultimately a useless and potentially wasteful sort of extravagance, dumping heat in that has to be pumped out. In a high-performance house ambience fireplaces tend to never get used, since they can't be run too long without overheating the place, but the thermal mass of all that marble granite & other stone can probably soak up quite a bit.

I've yet to see a mini-split in a cheap motel (not in ANY motel, for that matter)  but they're common enough in decent smaller hotels in Europe & Asia and elsewhere.  A name-brand mini-split is quieter than the mini-bar refrigerator in those same hotels, and nothing as obnoxious as the oversized 3-speed PTHP units found in most US middle-range hotels, or the bottom-of-the-line PTAC/PTHP units found in cheap motels.

Totally agree Dana, using a typical fireplace or stove in a high-performance house is almost always a very big mistake. If one wants fire and flames in their high-performance house, one should consider a masonry heater. Not a cheap choice, but perhaps reasonable if one buys a kit and DIY. However,masonry heaters are +90% efficient, generate less pollution than certified stoves (they burn at +1500F), and one gets 12/24 hour radiant heat with only one/two short firing(s) per day without overheating or excessively dehumidifying their high-performance home. Masonry heaters also often have nice baking ovens and heated benches that quickly become favorite places for people and pets. Having a masonry heater in your high-performance 2000 SF home is a much higher quality lifestyle than having any 7000 SF home that lacks one!

Yes, mini splits have been used in Europe and Asia for quite some time...yet another HVAC example of where the US has fallen behind...

I still have yet to see any unbiased field test comparing mini splits to ducted air handler, only bias marketing material claiming mini splits the holy grail. It is quite clear, if your beloved leaders jumped off a cliff, you would follow!

If you consider 5 or 6 mini splits more efficient a higher quality comfort, and lower maintenance versus just 1 air handler, I have an Island for sale in the pacific.

There are more hidden agendas in the business/marketing world than you have brain cells......

If the energy house costs 50k more to build and saves 1-2k each year on energy then the payback period will be 25-50 years, seems a bit long. what's the actual numbers?

I still have yet to see any unbiased field test comparing mini splits to ducted air handler, only bias marketing material claiming mini splits the holy grail.

Apparently you don't know anything about the Northwest Ductless Heat Pump Project supported by the BPA. It's only been running 5 or 6 years. Recently, they have been turning out data on homeowner preference for ductless heat pumps over forced air furnaces.

If you consider 5 or 6 mini splits more efficient...

I see you have come down to "5 or 6" from your usual "6 or 7", or was it "7 or more"? In any case, systems usually are planned for three or four interior units and most of the installations I've actually seen locally are one or two.

and lower maintenance versus just 1 air handler,

None of my friends who have the ductless heat pumps installed have ever needed a service call. EVER. However, people who have the forced air units have them regularly.