Structural Concrete Insulated Panel SCIP
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11 Jan 2012 10:12 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 08 Jan 2012 01:36 PM
This is a question for "SCIP Panel"

I'm building a SCIP home in P.C. Florida.  Can you tell me what your maximum unsupported span was for floor and roof panels?


Jim

My spans are flat 25’ but the panels are designed for 30’. If you want my engineers # email me


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12 Jan 2012 03:31 AM
Does anyone utilize SCIP in Arizona?

Do you have any pics of interior window areas or closeup of the walls?


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12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


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12 Jan 2012 09:08 AM
Posted By jonr on 12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


it is not 2-3" in a SCIP it is 1-1.5" on each side. And if you are assuming the ICF system is improperly installed with a "water mix", it is not comparable. I could assume the SCIP shot-crete was installed on a hot sunny windy day causing accelerated hydration and weak concrete.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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12 Jan 2012 02:25 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 12 Jan 2012 09:08 AM
Posted By jonr on 12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


it is not 2-3" in a SCIP it is 1-1.5" on each side. And if you are assuming the ICF system is improperly installed with a "water mix", it is not comparable. I could assume the SCIP shot-crete was installed on a hot sunny windy day causing accelerated hydration and weak concrete.


 

Or a scip shoot not tented on freezing days.     Lots of what if to be sure.
 My engineer made daily inspections during the shoot.

I shoot 1.5 each side 10 sack mix

I know what my heating bill was. I also saw it drop by 70% when we shot the interior.


I only know one ICF contractor, he is as high tech as anyone with his blend of additives to increase flow and set for faster lifts.


I will assume anyone on this fourm cares, takes the trouble to not take short cuts that compromise the job.




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12 Jan 2012 02:38 PM
Temperature today outside was 7 degrees . The inside had dropped to 59 from 60 the lowest to-date.
I am tracking two temperature readings
The thermostat and the SCIP walls. The walls always read higher.
So the walls were low mid 60s . We had a lot of trafic coming in and out and the air dropped to 55 (thermostat) and I dropped the thermostat to 50 so the heat would not come on.
After I finished going in and out for two hours the air temperature started to raise again and with today being a sunny day the wall with sun had raised to low 70s by 10:00.
Any wall with thermal mass can do this why do so many discount its affect?


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12 Jan 2012 03:52 PM
Posted By SCIP Panels on 12 Jan 2012 02:38 PM
Temperature today outside was 7 degrees . The inside had dropped to 59 from 60 the lowest to-date.
I am tracking two temperature readings
The thermostat and the SCIP walls. The walls always read higher.
So the walls were low mid 60s . We had a lot of trafic coming in and out and the air dropped to 55 (thermostat) and I dropped the thermostat to 50 so the heat would not come on.
After I finished going in and out for two hours the air temperature started to raise again and with today being a sunny day the wall with sun had raised to low 70s by 10:00.
Any wall with thermal mass can do this why do so many discount its affect?

I assume that a SCIP wall has better thermal mass effect because it is exposed and not sandwiched between 2 layers of EPS, correct?

What wall are your referring to that raised to the low 70s? I assume it is the interior concrete wall, correct?

In summer would the thermal mass effect make the interior wall very hot (100F+)?


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12 Jan 2012 04:58 PM
I got a quote for a SCIP. It was $5.40 a square foot. I am still waiting to find out if that includes the roof area, Shotcrete and labor costs. If it doesn't, then it will get very expensive, very fast.

Out of THREE SCIP companies, only ONE returned my calls/email.

If I understand the technology correctly. I would save money by NOT having to drywall the interior walls and by NOT having to "finish" the exterior with siding or stucco, since it has a concrete finish already. I would have to paint the interior and exterior concrete.






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12 Jan 2012 05:08 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.

With ICF, there is no doubt about its strength in regards to load, winds and mass. Where ICF seems to kind of be silent is when it comes to seismic. They always talk about tornado's, high winds, fires, floods, but there is often no mention of seismic.

With SCIPs, seismic is where they excel, at least from what I have researched.


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12 Jan 2012 07:32 PM
Posted By Lbear on 12 Jan 2012 04:58 PM
I got a quote for a SCIP. It was $5.40 a square foot. I am still waiting to find out if that includes the roof area, Shotcrete and labor costs. If it doesn't, then it will get very expensive, very fast.

Out of THREE SCIP companies, only ONE returned my calls/email.

If I understand the technology correctly. I would save money by NOT having to drywall the interior walls and by NOT having to "finish" the exterior with siding or stucco, since it has a concrete finish already. I would have to paint the interior and exterior concrete.






I know costs are high in Colorado for stucco/ shot crete work.
The Denver Panel maker is $6.00 to $7.50 per foot for R40 panels. They will move on site for projects big enough.

 

How you finish it is your choice.

The look my client was going for inside was loft/ commercial.

Exterior I have already put the picture up some areas totally unfinished , wood, metal and painted areas.



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12 Jan 2012 07:53 PM

 

 

Lbear

 

(I assume that a SCIP wall has better thermal mass effect because it is exposed and not sandwiched between 2 layers of EPS, correct?)

 

According to Oak Ridge national laboratories, 50% increase with the concrete on the inside of the foam wall over concrete sandwiched in the foam.

 They do not list SCIP, ICF or SIP but it is clear what systems they researched.

(What wall are your referring to that raised to the low 70s? I assume it is the interior concrete wall, correct?)

The walls that hit 70 to 80 are Interior walls and exterior walls on the interior side where the sun hits.

Today with a 10 foot window that was replaced, open for an hour. Workers in and out and the window guy also left the front door open when he left the inside temperature of the walls inside was 60 and 68 where the sun hit today

 

 

(In summer would the thermal mass effect make the interior wall very hot (100F+)?)

 

With the sun higher in the horizon it will not shine in as far into the house.

The smart glass is supposed to counter the effects in summer and we have a design for a sun shade if it is necessary.



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13 Jan 2012 01:16 AM
Where ICF seems to kind of be silent is when it comes to seismic. They always talk about tornado's, high winds, fires, floods, but there is often no mention of seismic.
Haven't we been down this road before?

ICF is essentially concrete and steel composite - "reinforced concrete". There is very little that has as large a body of "earthquake" work associated with it. Reinforced concrete is used everywhere, particularly in seismic applications and much of the ICF literature is devoted to this as well. Maybe you could point us to a comparison of SCIPS and ICF that would support your notion that SCIPS perform better in this regard.


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13 Jan 2012 03:28 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 13 Jan 2012 01:16 AM
Haven't we been down this road before?

ICF is essentially concrete and steel composite - "reinforced concrete". There is very little that has as large a body of "earthquake" work associated with it. Reinforced concrete is used everywhere, particularly in seismic applications and much of the ICF literature is devoted to this as well. Maybe you could point us to a comparison of SCIPS and ICF that would support your notion that SCIPS perform better in this regard.

The question was never really answered. I would really like to see some data showing a ICF with a 6" core and the report on how well it can and does stand up to seismic forces.

There should be some shake table studies out there for ICF.


SCIP Report





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13 Jan 2012 09:06 AM
The question was never really answered.
Maybe you didn't understand the answer. The answer is that ICF IS reinforced concrete. There is a huge body of work on seismic forces and reinforced concrete.

This SCIP report merely prepares some groundwork for the engineering treatment of SCIP panels. There is no seismic analysis in it and certainly no shake table work.


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13 Jan 2012 10:06 AM
I am sure SCIP does well with seismic forces, however that is only one of the forces applied to structures. I like the relative high ratio of steel to concrete as well as the truss wire between the concrete wythes. Overall ICF i think is a better wall system.

With a 6" concrete wall, there is always room for more rebar to make it stronger and improve it's seismic performance. I consulted with and engineer in a seismic area of Argentina and he plugged a waffle grid ICF house into his software, and he said it performed well.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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13 Jan 2012 11:56 AM
I'm the guy building the SCIP home in Panama City Fl.  I'm going to the build site next week and it will be my last chance to influence a design decision that I'm increasingly uncomfortable with.

I'm looking for ideas on ledger connections for my 12 inch floor panels to my 8 inch wall panels.  The first course of wall panels is 18 ft tall and the floor panels must connect at about the 12 ft level.  This means the floor panels can't overtop the wall panels because of the height difference.  My engineer has the floor panel upper and lower wythes connecting to the wall panel inner wythe only with wire mesh gussets.  He is relying on the diagonals of the truss to carry load and moments to the outer wythe of the vertical wall.  I don't think much of this design.

In addition to creating an eccentrically loaded wall, this arrangement will limit the outer vertical wall wythe function to that of a buttress whose only contribution will be to help keep the inner wall wythe in column.  My idea to remedy this is to connect the upper and lower floor panel wythes to the outer wall panel whthe with #3 rebar.  A six ft section with a 90 deg bend could be driven from the outer wall into the upper and lower floor panels and wire tied to the Z truss chords.  This is not a perfect solution because six inches of this rebar will be floating in wall foam instead of being embedded in concrete making load transfer very iffy.  I think it would however increase the moment transfer.

I'm looking for any other ideas those of you with experience might be willing to share.

Thanks in advance

Jim


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13 Jan 2012 12:56 PM
Jim,

I am not an engineer so take what I say only as an idea that should be verified throughly by your engineer. 

If I understand your concerns correctly, you do not trust the inner wythe of shotcrete to carry the floor load.  If so, then another alternative might be to through-bolt a galvanized 1/4" x 6" x 6" steel angle to both wythes of shotcrete in addition to using the detail as recommended by your engineer.  This method might be overkill but it would offer an ample bearing for the shotcrete floor panels.  I would think that the bolts alone with their inherent shear strength would support the floor load.  This would be more like using a belt with suspenders approach.  If this alternative will work, then your engineer can specify the steel angle and the type of bolt, size and spacing.

The bolt heads could be buried in the outer wythe of shotcrete or a trim band could hide them.

When do you think the shotcrete will be applied?  I would love to see the installed SCIP panels before shotcrete is applied so that I can compare the installation with how I installed Insteel SCIPs some years ago.  Now that Insteel (Tridipanel) is so far away and freight so great, I am considering Met-Rock SCIPs installed by Envirolast Structures for my clients.





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13 Jan 2012 01:03 PM


Thanks for the suggestion. We should be doing poured columns next week. Don't think shotcrete will begin until Feb. Rest assured there will be ample photo documentation in the blog. Look for another episode posting around the 25th of Jan.

Jim


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13 Jan 2012 01:44 PM
The panel supplier doesn't have connection details? I have seen on various sites where they just cut the wall panel and rest floor panel on the lower wall panel, then start the 2nd level wall panel on top of the floor panel w/ rebar connections under the mesh to tie in upper/lower wall/floor panels.
or they remove the eps on wall panel and created a bond beam w/ rebar to support floor panel. I saw they do the bond beam route with bolts for ledger board then truss floors as well.

Fascinating, good luck!


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13 Jan 2012 02:54 PM
Jim,

I just sent you a Private Message through this Green Building Talk forum.  Please use my included e-mail address when responding.


Residential Designer &
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