Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 28 Jan 2014 06:00 PM |
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Living in Europe one would not have this problem as we have here in the USA; that is finding a good energy efficient double door. I need to find a 3'- 0" x 7'- 10" (double door), total 6' width. I can get a French Door but I don't want all glass. I am looking for a nice wood door with an EPS core and excellent double or triple sealing capabilities.
Any leads?
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 30 Jan 2014 10:06 PM |
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Has anyone tried the Hammer & Hand Passive House Door? They are custom made in Oregon and use European hardware and sealing techniques.
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 31 Jan 2014 01:09 PM |
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We have not, but since they are in our backyard, we will look into them...thanks! We have a favorite custom cabinet shop that we use for special door projects (e.g., round old-English sytle, etc). |
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| Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do! |
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 31 Jan 2014 01:28 PM |
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In their blog they mention using butt hinges. if they are using butt-hinges, where are they using the european hardware? is it just on the latch side? I would think that a good door would have sealing on all sides, not just the latch side. I was thinking that the european hardware would pull the entire door onto the weather stripping just like european windows.
what is the expected price of one of these doors?
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ba_icf
Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 31 Jan 2014 03:46 PM |
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I just received my Zola subscription email, and they have some videos describing the installation of european windows, and they are actually on the hammer and hand website. I presume Zola is working with them, so you might look at some of Zola's doors, too.
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 17 Feb 2014 05:27 PM |
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One well-known green building company quoted me $10k for a R-10 door with triple gaskets  |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 17 Feb 2014 05:44 PM |
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@Lbear
$10 grand is ludicrous..... I'm sure I could have a local cabinet company to make them for far far less if I had access to the gaskets, hinges etc.
I to will be in the market for air tight entry doors would like to know where to go to find reasonably priced doors that will add value.
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georgec
New Member
Posts:97
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| 17 Feb 2014 05:54 PM |
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let me know what you come up with I'll have to cross that bridge eventually too, 10k? I would not even quote it at that point. at the end of the day its made of foam and wood not gold.
I am currently looking into building a super insulated home and a regular door just won't do, may have to make my own, I wonder what do they do in Europe, any good links?
I can't imagine what else would one have to do besides making it thicker, and triple seals to achieve a high R door, were you considering a storm door combination? is that even a good idea? some posts I came across were discussing the benefit, guess I could see it work as an extra air lock.
please do post your findings |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 17 Feb 2014 08:26 PM |
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Lets just focus on air tightness for a moment. How many seals does your refrigerator or freezer door have? With that out of the way, lets take a look at a basic steel residential entrance door with standard seal on 3 sides. How about if it where continuous on all 4 sides?   The point I'm making here is it doesn't require anything really special to have an air tight door. There is no reason to spend an obscene amount of cash to solve such a simple problem. My number one priority in a exterior door would be air tightness. So wheres my $300 air tight metal or wood door?  Nice door hardware sight I just found ..... http://www.tmhardware.com/Rubber-Seal-Bumper/
http://www.tmhardware.com/Resid...ystem.htmlhttp://www.tmhardware.com/Door-Gask...-Seal.html |
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georgec
New Member
Posts:97
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| 17 Feb 2014 09:20 PM |
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http://www.tmhardware.com/Utility-Threshold-Oak-Insert-Thermal-Break-7.625.html, this one looks interesting, that is a good source if you are going to build your own which I may or one could draw up their own and have a cabinet maker build it which will probably end up to be the same as the 10k door, I like all the thermal break items they have thou for what I had in mind as well as the OP they look a but undersized to say the least, but good to have a source for inspiration.
I used some of those items in the airtight example on that site, they don't work all that well. for my current house those are great, I actually have the door sweeps and such but for my upcoming build not so much, honestly those thresholds would be great if they were not metal even with that tiny thermal break looks like a bad bridge, the half thresholds look more promising, I saw a similar design on a UK passive house ( you tube ) they used something similar in a custom frame custom thermal break
I like where this is going I am going to look up some of the European examples for ideas |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 17 Feb 2014 09:56 PM |
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That's why we are hear is to inspire and be inspired ...... post what you can find George, maybe we can find a solution that makes economical sense to at less the problem air tightness. I know the prices on tmhardware is rather high but there are other sources I'm sure. I can always buy a mass produced exterior door and have cabinet shop modify it.
The main problem is in the corners of the door where the gasket are normally spliced ...... The gasket needs to be continuous!
If there is a slight lip on the threshold because of the lower gasket, well you just need to watch your step ...... Odd yes, but built like a freezer door and air tight, its the only economical way it can be done.....
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Feb 2014 10:20 PM |
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My thought exercise:
A submarine type door with gaskets on all four sides working in compression should be air tight. The frame and door jambs would have to be custom made, especially if the door was thicker than normal. The two problems that I ran into with the concept in the thinking stage was where would I find the door hardware for a thicker door and how would the code official and the public deal with the 1" step at the bottom that the door would close against.
My idea for a well-insulated door for a thick wall would be to use a 3" thick SIP with a metal or fiberglass skin and a polyurethane core . The typical door hardware would be too short to go through the door. The wall would have to be much thicker than normal to accommodate the thick door and the deep offset it would need in the jamb. A thicker door would require a larger gap around it to open freely. This would mean that the stop for the door would have to be at least 1" wide and 3" deep for the door to open and close without rubbing against the jamb. This type of door should not be that expensive to custom build. The door edges would need some material to seve as a thermal break and to protect the edges of the SIP skins.
What I really want to get away from are decorative solid wood doors and all of their associated problems. I prefer a painted door that reflects heat, especially if it faces the sun. I have found that solid wood doors will swell with moisture and heat and cause operating problems.
Any thoughts or comments? Am I too far out in left field. My concept might be an improvement over the double entrance doors I recently saw on a Parade of Homes house that had a door and then another door about 3 inches apart. The outer door swung out and the inner door swung inward. Similar to opening a storm door before the entrance door. These two doors were solid wood with an air space between them. I think I would prefer to open one door instead of two, even if the door was 3 inches thick. With enough hinges on it, the door should swing without much resistance. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 17 Feb 2014 10:34 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 17 Feb 2014 10:20 PM
The two problems that I ran into with the concept in the thinking stage was where would I find the door hardware for a thicker door and how would the code official and the public deal with the 1" step at the bottom that the door would close against.
As for the building code issue, I suppose you would want to make sure it's the same inspector that inspected the balcony which was at F.F.E. ? Hahaha On a serious note.... Would local building code prevent a 1" to 1.5" lip/step up at threshold? |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Feb 2014 11:10 PM |
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Ricky,
I just now searched 2003 IRC and found only this:
"The floor or landing at the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The floor or landing at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be required to comply with this requirement but shall have a rise no greater than that permitted in Section R311.5.3. Exception: The landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing."
Over the years, I have made it a practice to run my strange and novel ideas by the local code offical before submitting the plans for approval. Sometimes the code official will ask me to incorporate his suggestions to improve the concept before approval. I value their input, especially relating to safety. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 17 Feb 2014 11:37 PM |
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Thank you Alton...
Section seems to clear the way for height. Now how to take care of the corners, maybe a neoprene gasket which will make a 90 deg turn without buckling up to much .... rather wishful thinking .... maybe I can find something that will work ......
I'm sure there will be quite a few design concepts by the time I'm finished with the home design. I will certainly have to spend a day with the code officials to go over many innovative aspects to make sure they don't pull any surprises once the build commences. |
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georgec
New Member
Posts:97
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| 18 Feb 2014 12:14 AM |
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a three inch door would not be too hard to do, the wall I was planning was 18 inches thick, just got done modeling it in THERM worked out to be R63 dam might have overdone it, so a 3 inch door in my book is still not enough, I believe the op was looking for at least R10 whole assembly heck I would not mind pushing it to R20.
I love you tube granted it has a weird section too but there is a wealth of info easily searched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqxEUpBRNic&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLAFEE4D64BBA8296D
I watched the whole series these folks are very detail oriented and in the above video towards the end they describe what they have done for a door again custom build but simple stuff.
I firmly believe that if you want something done right you know what they say.... unfortunately the op was looking for a ready made door HMM when you get into above standard kindof hard to accomplish that unless you fork out 10k I guess, granted one could have it shipped from Europe last I ordered something from Italy shipping was outrageous and it was a small box, that defies the point too, might be best to design your own and if you are not handy or patient enough pay a carpenter to build it.
I still haven't found out what a triple seal door looks like I am sure it is air tight, I saw some magnetic trim pieces in that site got me thinking about the fridge Idea, I am also kind of partial to the screen door setup too I have them on my current house they don't bother me that much thou for the most part they are propped open so the wind can have its way with themso yes I guess they are annoying.
I honestly considered a full size sip panel for a door at some point I mean the whole 6 inches, or 5.5 whatever it is, I fitted enough doors in my day cant imagine the bevel on one of those, if I had to guess that's where the 3 seals come in as they are offset from one another kind of compensating for an outrageous bevel |
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georgec
New Member
Posts:97
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| 18 Feb 2014 12:25 AM |
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also tinkering on one of those window simulation software came across the brand name SouthWall, they had lots of glazing listed the OP mentioned he's not interested in all that French door glass but check this out dam they come a long way, wonder if this door would retail 10k also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvaclrdIJ1E |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 18 Feb 2014 01:52 AM |
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As for a High R Rated passive doors like the Hammer and Hand door, a custom cabinet shop should be able to duplicate the one in the video somewhere between $2300 to $2800 here in the southeast region....doing it yourself a heck of a lot less .... if built of hardwoods of course that would run the price up. http://hammerandhand.com/passive-house-doorsIf you notice in the pics and video the jamb seals are not continuous, they are cut in the corners so there will be leakage in the corners unless they meticulously glued them together in the corners which I doubt. The light round seal they my have turned the corners without cutting it. With seals cut in the corners it doesn't matter if you have a 10 seal system there will be air leaks in the corners. With the right seal it should only take one continuous seal to do the job in most cases. |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 18 Feb 2014 03:21 AM |
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May have found a product that might work ok in turning a 90 deg corner in a kerf..... Looks worth investigating and requesting a sample to test on a door in my house to see how well it stands up. http://www.amesbury.com/news/27/C2http://www.amesbury.com/divisions/s...ts/parts/4In the pic it looks rather bunched up with creases in the corner.... under compression maybe it will smooth out on the outer edge? I'm afraid though it wont be durable enough to take the friction on the hinge side for very long. I suppose if you got 5 years of service out of the seal it would be fine as they can be easily replaced.  |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 18 Feb 2014 08:38 AM |
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Sadly, finding an air tight door is not as easy as one would think. Most US doors are horrible at air sealing and of course a lot depends on the install but overall design on most US doors suffer from lack of good sealing and of course good R-Values. Hammer and Hand makes great doors but they are pricey.
There is no way to get around it, a good airtight seal will require two sets of gaskets, sometimes three. Look at any Passive House Door or window, they all have double or triple gaskets. If it could be done with one gasket, I am sure there would be a Passive House door or window with just one gasket, but there isn't.
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