So....

Lots more of the "we're so great" lots of words and time put in typing, but not even as much as your simple design mix to help the rest of us get moving toward the holy grail of ART proficiency.  Or should I say from now on, the artists formerly known as ART.

Come on, its time to give the consumer a big warm bear hug, to tell them they are pioneers and will have success using ICF especially by working with a value added experienced REGIONAL distributor, not some fear inducing rethoric that it takes years to pour a wall consolidated or plumb. 

Once again, the consumer leaves this forum feeling fearful and overwhelmed.  And starts asking every installer they meet about gravelling, to which the response is probably jagged and not well thought out.  Partially because it is an artist formerly known as ART' own self- coined term, is it not? 

With proper industry set protocols, this "gravelling" becomes a non issue.  We just moved to Wyoming, where fly ash in the mix is not available.  We received a mix that would hardly pump our first pour;  Great concrete, just hard to pump.  I took some time and stripped foam, no problems-because our protocols are in place.  Yes, it is a wonderful idea to check ones own pour after the fact.

I am not a concrete design mixer, I do so much want to learn, but this "knowledge is power, lets keep the knowledge but boast publicly about our incredible feats" has got to stop.  Its shows the difference between being sales based and service/consumer based, an area the ICF industry is shifting to. 

Ian Gielser as never been perfect (sorry Ian) but his websites, link and link speak volumes about who he works for.  THE CONSUMER.


Mark:

I am glad some of the ICF leads I'm sending your way are working out for you.

It's really not if you're drinking, sometimes its what you're smoking that worries some of us....  

For the consumer who sees this as bickering, I sincerely apologoze.  In a self regulating industry, some simply must be proactive and at times tough to properly edify the entire industry.  I meet too many homeowners excited to build with technology, but scared stiff of "problems" who build conventionally.  Later, they have told me they regret not spending the $5K ICF surcharge for a basement.  What a shame.

In the future, I hope to be able to unite industry wide, not only "ex ART now INTERNAL wide" for the long term benefit of the consumer and the environment.  Yep, there may be some pain, but that was the whole point of the Revolution, wasn't it?

Kevin

Wow I can't believe I was included in this post,  sence I never posted. And a protege nun the less.

It's a pretty soggy day here so I have a little time.

I have had voids in some of my walls. Probably more than I'm aware of, being that we were taught "not" to internaly vibrate in the those early days. It's a lot of work paching a concrete void. So these days we are using 1.5 to 2" vibraters.  I'd rather rasp a little foam bulge than have a poorly built structure.
I've have had walls that leaned as well, much to my suprise because they were straight when we left the site.
When you work with home owner assited projects you learn a  lot about pushing the limits.

Such as: 

 Poorly assembled forms, Forms overhanging the footings " this will make a wall lean", forms settling.
And reciently a poorly manufactured " home made" bracing witch will make a wall lean at the bottom and middle of the wall.

The repairative measure for a leaning ,but structural safe wall, will most likly be: rasping foam on one side and adding foam on the other and then rasping it flat.

 Avoiding all of these problems while improving our craft is where this whole ART thing came into play for me.
And if there actualy is a "protege" involved it is this shared knowlage.

Oh! I almost forgot . Would anyone like some SpeedFloor?

Working with an open mind, can bring people forward.  It took me a long time to step away from super plasticized, 3/8" pea gravel high slump mixes because I was concerned about voids, honeycombing and such related items.  When I did, and listened to the professionals around me, and gave it an honest try, I was very suprized to find that it worked very, very well.  With the expierience of seeing a 2" vibrator PLUS two 1" vibrators at the bottom of a stiff mix, course aggregate pour, with no bulging or bowing, and perfect consolodation for over one minute (yes they were all turned on and runnig).  I can say that I have the confidence in the older, tried and true methods of standard concrete placement.  As for the reduction in portland, I was trying to advise that I get a standard, ACI partitioned mix, not a strength mix, which is both economical, and has lots of portland in it. Best part is that it is actually cheaper to purchase by the yard for the most part.

Please take the time to open your mind, try something new, however please also do so with an expierienced individual, as you have to commit to the entire process, not just the mix, or placement or vibrating, it has to be all or nothing, with an honest effort placed.

Not Placeing or consolodating your concrete properly is not only against all codes, it is against good standards of practice.  Please take the time to read recent posts with reference to a real life expierience of this boards general advise on proper consolodation.  Additionally, please read the PCA report bulliten RD134  Concrete Consolodation and the potential for voids in ICF walls by the PCA written by John Gagda and Amy Dowel.

Its pretty descriptive and self explainatory, and as an independant and reputable organization, backs up what we have been saying for years.

Mark Ross

Assuming that thier specifications are code compliant and up to date with the latest available information, as well as complete, accurate and tested, with ICC and/or CMHC approvals.

Remember that most installation manuals are not written by qualified individuals or have any real reasearch behind them.  There are two that particularily stand out as quality manuals, The old greenblock manuals (Argosol) where well written and complete, as well as Integraspecs manuals, which I am personally aware of being well researched and complete as well.  Most others hinge off of the writers or manufacturers personal and most often local experience and tend to be very vauge about concrete, the prescriptive method, which is lacking in current information and needs to be updated, or worse yet, no manual other than form construction instructions at best.

Having written a couple of install manuals for ICF manufacturers, and been actively involved in research associated with approvals and installation methods testing, I would say that the manuals I read, are sparse at best, and dont really detail all that is truely needed.  We need a new book written on construction practices associated with ICF formwork, including standards of practice as well as forming standards, which have never been defined.

Mark Ross