Bill
I don't know what size "flare" you planned on providing, but I wouldn't flare it because if the opening is not large enough, the probability of cracking at the inside part of the flare is pretty good. I would cut the foam square to the surface. Would the cracking hurt anything.....probably not but once cracked, say on the exterior, if the foam is ever removed partially at a core, and the cracked portions fall out, such as when a ledger may need to be repaired, you're left with no backer.

The wood noted above works, however i suggest 6" cores as 4" are a little small for my taste!

GRickard, who's your Amvic rep? Ted (western US) is great.

Hopefully those bolts are at least to Code's 7" embedment. With foam 2.5" thick this means that at least 4" will be in the wall proper. (And hopefully the flares will be wide-base, not narrow-base...)

Another more seismically-sound option (and fireproof) is to use angle-iron as ledger, fastened with anchor-bolts to your flares. Wood belongs in the forest.

I don't see why separately form the beams and columns? Make them out of ICF. Just build all the block up to just above your ledgers and pour. I don't know what area you're in, but in seismically-active areas you need special rebar placement. I can tell you how we do it in the PacNW, but it is best left to your engineer or archit.

There is no engineer or arch. I'm doing this all by my lonesome with help from you guys and friends suggestions.

My thinking as well as my concrete contractor friend is a 6" beam spanning 22 feet is not enough which is why I was thinking of a formed column and beam.

Oh, I thought you said you have 10' wide doors, presumably with a column between.

No reason why you couldn't use 8" ICF. Seems like it would be cheaper and easier than custom-forming. But you'd need to design your rebar adequately, as in two #5's below and two above connected with stirrups at close intervals. I'll defer to Amivic for their recommended design though. Doing the opening with red steel supporting 6" ICF is another option, although maybe you're comfortable with what you have.

That is exactly the reason you need an architect or engineer. Like I've told folks about heating and cooling system sizing, there are two ways to go at it, "by guess and by gosh," or by calculation. A house structure is not something you want to design "by guess and by gosh." Waaaaaaayyyyy too much at risk; integrity, durability, and not least of all, safety.

At the very, very least, download the installation manuals from several block manufacturers, and the Prescriptive Method for ICF Construction from http://www.huduser.org/publications/destech/icf_2ed.html and study them till your eyes turn upside down! Spend $60 and get a CD copy of the 2006 International Residential Code. Those manuals all have a lot of information about lintel designs, as well as everything else you need to know about building a house, ICF or stick.

But first, let's back up a bit to some fundamentals. I have no intention of questioning your knowledge or abilities because I don't know where you're coming from with regard to your experience and knowledge. I just want to emphasize emphatically there are some basic aspects of home construction you must be aware of, or you stand a great chance of getting into deep doo doo.

Do you know and understand what is meant by dead load, live load, snow load, joist and beam deflection, column loading and bending, soil load bearing capacity, shear panels, I-joist vs. 2x board, uniform loads and point loads, and on and on? If your answer is no, you have a hell of a lot of learning to do. If your answer is yes, you probably still have a hell of a lot of learning to do, but you stand a much better chance of being successful than if your answer is no.

I've been an engineer for 40 years and have done some house remodelling and such in years past. I've been at my ICF house project pretty much full time for a year now, and am just now getting close to digging dirt and starting building. I can't tell you how much I've learned (and unlearned!) in the past year, and I'm coming from a background of technical experience and knowledge.

Good luck as you pursue your project, and please, be careful.

I used the 4" hole because it would fit just right between the studs (6" on center). Not reeal sure what you mean by "flared", but the hole is 4" round and straight through the 2 1/2" of foam. The anchor bolts extend through the hole to within an inch of the back of the 6" cavity, so I am plenty comfortable with the connection. I did put a layer of rubber between the concrete and my ledger board (not pressure treated).

As far as my sales rep, I bought the forms from Lee Chandler in SW Indiana, but I am building in western Kentucky.

Greg

GRickard, you will have better strength if you taper that hole to be larger inside. Generally it's easiest to just use a knife to cut a square hole, larger inside. The size should approximate the ledger that will be going on it, maybe a little smaller.

I agree, 4" is too small; you must brace against rotating moment. Your firring-strips are on 6" centers? That's not Amvic. (8")

Bill, if you are technical and a good study, you will be OK if you follow the lintel design recommendations on the block manufacturer's website and in the International Building Code. (I don't think ICF is in the IRC) If you are not familiar with the terms dmaceld notes, you are on very thin ice, concrete man notwithstanding. Most concrete mens' knowledge is gained second- and third-hand, and is usually junk in the first place.

BTW, the IBC adopted the methods almost word-for-word from HUD's Prescriptive Method for ICF (version 2), so getting the HUD doc is an easy and free way to get great reference info. It is intended though for a basic structure; if your home is larger or more complex, it should be engineered based on these principles.

Actually, it is. There's quite a bit of info in the IRC, most of which follows the Prescriptive Method. Generally, the requirements aren't as stringent as some mfr's installation instructions, as in amount of rebar. Also, the tables are based on 5.5" and 7.5" wall thicknesses. Don't know why they did that unless it has something to do with equivalent thickness for waffle grid blocks.

$60 for IRC CD is one of the better purchases I've made for this whole project. Helps me keep up with, or even stay ahead of, the inspectors.

You mention IBC. The IRC is a compilation of the parts that pertain to residential construction from the IBC, NEC, Energy, and Mechanical codes. That's what makes it so worthwhile.

I've been studying, reading, watching, sleeping this project for over a year. That includes my proscritive method, every ICF tech manual I can find, going to building sites and helping working to learn.
That said in the past I built a 3200 sqft garage and sports room of block attached to my house with 17 ft walls. Tie beams, lintels, elect, plumbing, set my trusses all over 48 ft long. So far it has withstanded 3 hurricanes and 5 tropical storms plus numurmous biker parties that probaley generated more destructive force than Katrina.
That was my first block job. I have build stick before.

OK, I do have a lot to learn, and I'm learning it everyday, I'll hopefully keep learning. I don't think I'm reinventing the wheel here. A bunch of you guys do this everyday, some here may have never pulled mud before, some are dreamers. I am building a house for myself, I started it and I will finish it.

My "concrete man" actually is a top guy at a major co. He worked his way up from forming sidewalks 30 years ago to running big crews and design. They build highrises, airports and such. He's not a guy with a pickup and mixer. At my disposal is his entire company and crews to teach, show and or help.

But none of them have ever worked with ICF's

My doors are 10' wide seperated by a 11 X 24 column which although not framed out yet will be sitting on top of the footer which at that point is 4'X4' square and 24 inches deep. 6 sticks of number 5 rebar is tie wired to the footer vertically with stirrups placed and to be continued at 12" increments horizantally.
I picked 11" deep to match the ICF's 24 wide to make the openings 10' finished with bucks. Doors are 8' tall.

I'm sure that's enough column to support my beam. Question is what type style of beam do I use. I want it continuous across and poured the same time as my walls and column.

I'm looking at 2 courses of ICF above that to ledger height, if I use ICF's for a lintel. That would give me a 6" X 32" bean/lintel. continous with the rest of the wall and a solid pour. I would use number 6 rebar at 20 length to span with plenty of overlap and stirrups every fot.

I'm just kicking ideas around.

Basement walls start the 12th of this month. Got to make up my mind.

Thanks

I still think you should get a concrete engineer to look at this. There are several reasons why I say this. The lintel tables in the IRC & Presriptive Method only show up to 24" deep lintel, and interpolation from 12" to 24" isn't linear. I don't know for certainty what to project for 32" deep. The max widths for the openings in the table are on the order of 10' to 14', with a lot of the allowable widths less than 10', so there's not a lot of extra length in the table numbers to give confidence of being able to overbuild. Unfortunately, doubling the depth of the beam doesn't double the span it can cover. The numbers are affected by the weight of the concrete in the beam itself. I'm sure you can visualize a situation where a concrete beam 1000' long would eventually not carry it's weight if you keep increasing the depth. A ten foot span is no where near that situation, but I was surprised when I looked at the table how quickly there is a case of diminishing returns, even for a 10' span. I'm also going to have 2 10' x 8' garage doors separated by a 4' wall, but with only a 20" deep beam. I was able to pick numbers from the table. The load above the lintel makes all the difference in the world, and the weight of the wall itself is a big component. The lintel tables are based on the load above the lintel. If you can locate windows above the lintels that would be to your benefit as it would cut the load. If the height to width ratio of the ICF wall above the doors is great enough, say another 12' of wall, you might not need any extra rebar and stirrups simply because you move from a beam condition to a plate on edge condition. Not as critical. You might look at running the bottom rebar in the lintels continuous across both doors. This will increase the strength of the lintels. 30' should do it. Or are the doors in different wall planes?

Because of all the variables involved it would be to your benefit to have an engineer look at this. A couple or three hundred bucks would buy a lot of peace of mind.

My gut reaction is what you are planning on doing will be plenty good enough, but I can't flat out say it is because of all the unknowns.

The ICF column will be OK. 6" x 24" = 144 sq in. Multilply that by 2500 psi for concrete you get 360,000 lbs. That's a lot of house! Theoretically the footer is the limiting factor. If you are on 2000 psf soil you can support 4' x 4' x 2000 psf = 32000 lbs. That is about 9% of the column capacity but still should be plenty enough.

Quantum:
Amvic is indeed a six inch on center web spacing.

Raider Bill
Where is the amvic guy through this?

What is your exterior finish on the long span area, do you need the lintel to support brick veneer also? This may affect your calculations also.

Kevin

My doors are on the same level and I planned on a continouse run of rebar across the entire front of the house 48' in this part.

Once I get my ICF's up to ledger height in the front I have another desicion to make. Do I continue up with ICF to the eaves as I will do with the other 3 walls or will I switch over to stick on that wall only. It is my veiw side of the mountains [south] so many windows are needed there plus double french doors to the deck.

I already have the windows bought, low E, double paned gas filled but my thinking is why build ICF on 3 sides and stick in front. Weight is a factor and the amount of windows it would be easier to do this in stick [2x6] min maybe 2x8 for the insulation factor.

The plate on edge idea has aslo been bounced around but I'm going to have a cold joint 2 courses above the lintel, I could stretch this to 3 courses I guess and give me more head room in the basement which will be my shop so that's not really a bad thing. This will give me a 4' X 6" "plate".

Kevin,

No brick, thinking of a stone stamped stucco, hardi board or the dreaded vinyl. I like board and batten but too much maintance.

I'm getting my blocks from a lumber yard Dist. but support is non exsistent. I am in contact with a AMVIC rep from the home office in Canada and he has been a help.

Here is the best I can do for a drawing. footprint is 40x48 this is the front 48 south facing and my best veiw.

Dotted line is my cold joint just above the ledger board and is 12' or 9 courses of ICF. This will give me close to a 10' ceiling height in the shop.

Shaded area inbetween OHD's is 11" x 24" poured coloumn. Doors are 8'H X 10'W.

3 courses of ICF above OHD's would give me a 6" X 4' solid pour beam or flat plate whichever you would call it then.

Continous or extra overlapped #6 rebar spanning the entire front tied with stirrups every 12"

RB

Why would I need a Inginer if I can draw that good!

Anyone have a list of needed tools to work ICF?

What's the best hand saw tooth count to use?

I thought you had to have log siding and a green metal roof if you have a mountain view!

For cutting ICFs I use a circular saw with a general purpose wood blade most of the time. Throws little poly particles all over you though. I also use a regular drywall saw for hand cutting ICFs. Seems to work pretty good. Other tools are pretty much regular carpenters tools and concrete tools (rebar bender/cutter, wire tie tool etc) plus some DOW Enerfoam and gun. Amvic probably has a detailed guide with tools list for each step.

Have you checked into what a local Inginer would charge to spec just that one wall. If it was my house I'd feel more comfortable spending a few hundred $ to be sure it will stay there and he might actually save you $s since your inclination might be to overbuild to be safe.

OH! He meant "engineer"! I was looking all over for some brand called Ingineer, and only came up with French references, LOL.

I figure I can side it with anything including log if I want.

Will be a sip roof so I suppose any colors open. Maybe a nice aqua green.........
I could go the cheap way out and let ROCK CITY paint it for me.

Might stop in and chat with a local Engineer if I can find one up there. I'm pretty confident either the poured 11"X 16" beam or 3 courses or extra reinforced ICF's will work. but as you say may save some $$$ in the long run.

Actually, I'm ok building either way. I've also considered a steel I beam but, in building this house my real brain drain is thinking on how I'm going to build the timber frame greatroom.

Thanks on the saw tip. I have averything else including probaley 10 hand saws but didn't want to drag them all up there to test for the best one.

This thread has drifted into so many different areas that it makes it difficult for anyone to use a search function.

Perhaps someone wants to start more specific threads instead of so many general discussion topics in such a broad sense.