ICF Efficiency and structural strenght claims really true?
Last Post 03 Apr 2008 03:52 PM by CFL-ICF. 42 Replies.
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irnivekUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 10:15 AM
Quetion 1:
Yes there is probably something wrong with your furnace and the way the home was built if it shakes and is inefficient. As stated by others, do a blower door test and thermal imaging. These are things a good home inspector will perform, most of them in my experience however are robots with "no skin in the job." no liabilty afterwards. Only six inches of cellulose in the ceiling is ridiculous. It would seem your stick stair entrance and cellulose roof insulation may be creating a chimney effect due to air infiltration, therefore negating one of the biggest pros of ICF; a sealed external envelope.

Question 2:
Rusted structural members/fasteners in a building are not acceptable. Remediate this problem.

Question 3:
Fact: Properly built ICF homes are quieter and stronger. Possibly your expectations were too high or there is an issue with how the home was built.
I have lived in stick homes and layed awake at night in thunderstorms wondering if they were going to break apart. I've travelled the country installing ICF's and called home to learn my family was sleeping in the basement for fear of tornadoes. Our personal ICF home- in the middle of a field in Wyoming where the wind routinely howls- provides a haven of unsurpassed livability. To tell you the truth, I don't even care if its super efficient...but we are happy with it.

ps.
I can't seem to have a problem with miformguys post. Nice to have fresh qualified perspective around. For those of you who don't like disagreement, join a club where everyone thinks the same and sing kumbya. This is a forum where disagreement is neccessary, as we are all different with different hopes, goals and dreams. Don't expect the pros to rewrite the book explaining each issue to homeowners who are often acting like they are experts because they have read past postings; especially when judgement is passed on ICF when no real proactive remediation has been attempted.

Bottom line: If you are unhappy with your efficiency, do your blower door test, and thermal imaging. Properly check the sizing of your hvac, ie get it checked NOT by the person who installed it in the first place! And find out who installed the ICF. Possibly a homeowner "trying to save money....?"

Kevin
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 10:41 AM
Yes, too big of a furnace will short cycle and cost more to run. Most companies who do the HVAC calc's do not account for the thermal mass of the walls and install a system as if it was a conventional stick frame home. Have it reviewed by a competant company that designs for ICF's and I'll bet you need a smaller system.

Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
BuntlyUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 12:12 PM

Melted snow around the perimeter of the house could be a cause of many things other than heat loss of the building. Any home with brick will soak up the energy of the sun and radiat off this energy melting the snow around the perimeter. Go out an hold your hand by a brick building on a sunny day in late afternoon after the brick has "soaked" up energy all day,..........you will feel heat radiating off the brick. I am skeptical that there is enough heat loss thru 5" of eps to melt snow around the perimeter of the bldg. A picture would be worth a thousand words.

Bunt

Bunt
FarmboyUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 12:16 PM
Irnivek, First of I read your posts which I find are usually to the point, helpful and appear based on experience. I also think disagreement is necessary to stimulate discussion and achieve solutions. But miformguy providing "fresh qualified perspective". Certainly he provided a perspective. Qualified? Don't know. Fresh? Other ICF supporters have ranted as such on this forum. The homeowner followed the post title with a question ? mark, not an exclamation ! point. He's not stating ICFs suck, he's wondering what's may have happened and what to do. Note I did not offer "expert" advice, only expressed empathy and support. Expert advice is your job.

Patrick, sorry about the distraction. I'm sure the experts will help you sort thru your problems. Looking forward to learning along the way.
Dave
PatrickG26User is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 01:36 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions folks.  Really appreciated.  I will get some cellulose added to the attic and have my furnace checked by another company.

I will take some pictures and post them up shortly.


PatrickG26User is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 06:05 PM
As requested, here are some pictures;

Back Exterior of Garage
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_0998.jpg

Left side of house..notice the snow is away from home:
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1001.jpg

Rust covered bolt, taken from basement (this is what is holding up my floors!
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1002.jpg

Zoomed out view of the above pic...you can see all the bolts...all have rust. (some appear to be fully rusted)
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1004.jpg

This is the entrance to garage from basement (that "box" with the door) - it's the only part of the house not "ICF":
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1005.jpg

This is the attic access (can only access from garage)..there's no hole for it in the house:
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1006.jpg

Bottom of garage wall, where you can clearly see the Nudura blocks
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1007.jpg

Fireplace in basement (does nothing to reduce furnace cycling);
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1008.jpg

This is the Geothermal Furnace:
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1009.jpg

closeup of furnace hoses
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1010.jpg

Sum pump and hole (could heat be leeching out of here?
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1012.jpg

Air exchanger..seems properly insulated
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1013.jpg

Dryer duct...seems properly insulated
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1014.jpg

The black cable is going into where the guy drilled a hole...that caused my whole house to shake
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1015.jpg

Same hole viewed from inside the garage
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1016.jpg

ICF foam seen from garage
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1017.jpg

front door is supposedly a super insulated double pane glass
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1018.jpg

Windows facing south to let heat from sun in
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1019.jpg

This is the thermostate that came with the furnace
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1021.jpg

double pane low e argon windows (same windows all through the house)
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1023.jpg

Under the stairs in the basement...can clearly see the ICF foam
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1024.jpg

more views of the bolts holding my floor up.  Some of them even seem as though they are being "sucked" into the wood
http://iolsol.com/ICF_pics/100_1025.jpg






GeorgiaTomUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 06:25 PM
Looks like bolt holes are leaking water or are condensating, as you can see the water stains

Snow melting must be the effects of  thermal mass :)
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 06:35 PM
I couldn't read your furnace label, too much flash, picture is fuzzy.

Rust on the AB's was caused by condensation most likely during construction, it's not a major problem

Have you/your builder received a occupancy/final inspection from the city/municipality and ESA?

Few violations that need to be addressed

NO ICF can be exposed in the living space, i.e. under the stairs and the seam where the drywall hits the rim joist, can be fixed with a single coat of drywall tape
The firewall between the garage and house needs to be continuous to the underside of plywood or for the easy way to fix it, drywall the ceiling of the garage, cleaner looking as well
The firewall needs a minimum of one coat of drywall tape, without looking I would wager the whole garage needs one coat of tape minimum (OBC)
The 12/2 wire running across the middle of the garage ceiling needs to be protected by either attaching to the side of the 2x brace to the left of it or 2 - 2x running on either side of it.



Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
PatrickG26User is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 06:36 PM
Wow you're right, I never even noticed that looking at them!  - The floor (and those bolts) are about 3 feet above the ground level though.... I can't think of where the water would be coming from....
PatrickG26User is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 06:45 PM
Posted By Chris Johnson on 03/30/2008 6:35 PM
I couldn't read your furnace label, too much flash, picture is fuzzy.

Rust on the AB's was caused by condensation most likely during construction, it's not a major problem

Have you/your builder received a occupancy/final inspection from the city/municipality and ESA?

Few violations that need to be addressed

NO ICF can be exposed in the living space, i.e. under the stairs and the seam where the drywall hits the rim joist, can be fixed with a single coat of drywall tape
The firewall between the garage and house needs to be continuous to the underside of plywood or for the easy way to fix it, drywall the ceiling of the garage, cleaner looking as well
The firewall needs a minimum of one coat of drywall tape, without looking I would wager the whole garage needs one coat of tape minimum (OBC)
The 12/2 wire running across the middle of the garage ceiling needs to be protected by either attaching to the side of the 2x brace to the left of it or 2 - 2x running on either side of it.




It's a WaterFurnace E-Series 2 ton Geothermal system.

So I shouldn't worry about the rust on the bolts?  (Me being a dum dum here was scared my floor would collapse)

I bought the house from the guy who built it.  He got all his permits and everything from the municipality.  In addition, before I purchased the house, I had an independant home inspector come in and he said everything was great with the house.

I plan on finishing the basement ceiling as soon as I know my house is "OK"...So no ICF will be exposed.  I find it weird that the home inspector did not catch this if it is a code violation!!

The yellow cable you see is the cable to internet guy came and put in just a few weeks ago. It's an Rj45 cable.

Thanks for your advice!!!!!!!

James EggertUser is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 09:44 PM
Obviously there are some issues we cannot see, but can only try to interpret!

However, not being fully up to speed with Geothermal, I thought the electric backup portion of the system only kicked in if the system settings such as the outdoor temp sensor, among others, indicated that the system could not either keep up or gain on the required temperature increase desired?? In other words, the system will use the geo water part to heat the house, albeit slowly, and only use electricity as a "backup" part of the system? To me it sounds like the backup is going on every time the system turns on, and then short cycles??
Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent
PatrickG26User is Offline
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30 Mar 2008 10:33 PM
The emergency heat (called "AUX HEAT" on my thermostat) only turns on if the temperature difference between the current house ambient and whatever setting I choose is more than about 2 degrees.  It's the only time it turns on.  (I know when it's on because a little red light flashes on my thermostat to tell me the emergency heat is on).  Once the ambient temperature reaches 1 degree of my setting, the emergency heat shuts off and the regular geo kicks in.

When it cycles on and off all the time, it's never the emergency heat...just the regular geothermal.

Now that I'm reflecting on it, I don't think it's my furnace because if I turn it off (at the furnace), within 15 minutes, my house temperature goes down 1 degree.  Within 30 minutes it's down about 2 or 3 degrees.. (just finished testing this...but it's true that it's pretty cold outside right now...around -15 celcius).

I'm pretty convinced it's the lack of proper insulation in the attic.......

But still does not explain why my house shaked so much for just a little hole in the wall....and why snow is melting around my house.... scared the concrete pour may not have been good now from some other posts in this thread...but I don't think there's any way of finding that out short of a blower test ...which I'll have to find someone who does that...don't know where to start looking lol
robinncUser is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 12:23 AM
The shaking scares me the most. I'm no expert in any way with ICF, but the first thing that comes to 'my' mind is if the walls were consoladated properly durring the pour. 'Maybe' some walls have hollow sections on the lower part of the wall allowing for all of this shaking?? Also, I would think that if there is alot of gaps in the lower walls....this would allow heat to go thru the walls melting the snow. Didn't you say 3 sides are vinyl? They don't radiate heat like brick. Shaking enough to knock a lamp off of a table seems like one hellava lot of shaking for such a small hole. I hope I'm completely wrong! How many ICF houses did this GC build before yours?
Experts out there.....you're opinion??
BuntlyUser is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 08:26 AM
Man, as far as the melted snow goes, I would guess there is typically less under the overhang area. Maybe the siding is reflecting some of the sun which is melting what little snow is under the overhang area? As for the shaking part, that is all relative. I think possibly a better term would be vibrating. A few months ago, I drilled a 4" hole thru an icf wall. When you're inside it is very loud with lots of vibration. You could watch pieces of dirt vibrate on the subfloor. Also, do you have a separate meter for your geo? Here in Mi, we pay about half for geo electricity usage as we do for standard electric. If you really wanted to monitor where your electric is going, you could look into something like this http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html

Bunt
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vhehnUser is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 11:06 AM
Posted By PatrickG26 on 03/30/2008 10:33 PM


But still does not explain why my house shaked so much for just a little hole in the wall....and why snow is melting around my house.... scared the concrete pour may not have been good now from some other posts in this thread...but I don't think there's any way of finding that out short of a blower test ...which I'll have to find someone who does that...don't know where to start looking lol


a blower door test will not necessarially tell you if the poor is bad. if the icf insulation unbroken it will seal the gaps.
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31 Mar 2008 04:04 PM
Patrick,
    After looking through the pictures you posted, I'm wandering if you air exchager may be sucking too much warm air out of your house. Could it be that its running all the time and putting cold air in that your geo has to fight back? I'm by no means an expert, but it was just something that stood out to me as a place to look.

Greg 
GeorgiaTomUser is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 04:13 PM

Greg;

 

Thats a good point, we have ours on a percentage timer, it comes on for just 5 min. every hour, but if it ran all the time you are right the airhandler would be always trying to catch up

PatrickG26User is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 04:30 PM
Posted By GeorgiaTom on 03/31/2008 4:13 PM

Greg;

 

Thats a good point, we have ours on a percentage timer, it comes on for just 5 min. every hour, but if it ran all the time you are right the airhandler would be always trying to catch up

Mine has 3 settings:

1) OFF
2) LOW
3) HIGH

It's on LOW all the time...24/7.... in the instruction booklet it says it should be kept on 24/7 on low.  the High setting apparently is for is you need to clear the house of recent contamination..such as if you had a party with a bunch of smokers.

... Do you think it really needs to be on 24/7 ? ...

It does have a "heat exchange" ...whatever that is....apparently it's supposed to minimize the effects of the cold air coming in.

Paul StevensUser is Offline
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31 Mar 2008 08:38 PM
If your house was built in the winter time and the builder did not cover the walls, snow could have built up on top of the footing, concrete will not melt the snow if it is more than 1/2" or more. then when it does melt due to warm weather, guess what, lots of holes. That could be the cause of your shaking. if possible try poking a 12" nail, knitting needle, etc. through the foam just above the basement floor. if it goes through, you will have an answer.
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31 Mar 2008 09:35 PM

Patrick,
   If you think the air exchanger may be part of your problem, you might want to post over on the geo furum. I'm sure the guys over there can give you the info you need about how and when it should run.
    I asked my installer about one and he said he would be happy to sell me one but I would get plenty of fresh air just coming in and out the doors.He also told me that most people he has installed them for want them removed after a couple of years. So needless to say I opted out on that one for now. 
   Good luck finding your problem.

Greg

 

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