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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 13 Dec 2008 07:54 AM |
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Back to the subject of bracing. If my memory serves me correctly a standard ICF brace will not work with TF. TF needs a horizontal brace to hold it together unlike a modular block ICF. Any one else on this one?
Dave |
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woulfcc
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 13 Dec 2008 09:51 AM |
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I have worked with tf on something like this and yes Dave it is not like all the other blocks. The project did not have one straight wall in the build. (Cuved and raidis walls)
The bracing was just unreal , (but it did not move) not even a 1/8".
The amount of wood used could have build a house with.
This build was over 2 years to the roof.
TF has a splice every foot that has to be held together or it will separate and bulge at the corners.
This build foot print has a lot bracing on it. With tf it will have even more strapping on it.
I would recommend using the steal ties on this one ( they stand up with more strength to stand up straight)
***** Mr home owner call Jerry S. at tf in Wis. show him what you are looking to do.****
TF System® - The Vertical ICF
3030C Holmgren Way
Green Bay, WI 54304
Toll Free: 866.983.9960
Business Hours: M-F 7:00AM - 4:30PM CST
He will give you the news about your build, He is the guy that invented this stuff and knows it inside and out.
Inside and out is what you will be strapping this one or you will have a big problem.
You have a lot of work on this one to make it look good but it can be done.
Just don't say ICF's are so expensive to build with , this foot print is what will cost you in the labor to keep it together when you pour it.
If you try to go with out an experienced tf installer with this on because of money you will not get straight corners on this build. ( I can see it already)
I hope you can see my concern here , look for help with a PRO TF ICF BUILDER !!!!!
This is not a do it your self build! |
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| Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
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lkazanov2
Basic Member
Posts:177
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| 16 Dec 2008 12:25 AM |
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Guys,
Thanks for all the feedback. Indeed, the corners make this complicated to say the least. I believe with TF it will go up pretty quickly, but the bracing will take forever. Applying external bracing above grade to the second floor will be challenging. My second choice is quadlock. I believe they have the strongest corner. So given the footprint any decision of TF vs Quadlock?
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 16 Dec 2008 02:12 PM |
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ikazanov, if that is your "only" choice I would go with Quadlock. I personally don't prefer on-site assembly, but Quadlock is one of the better blocks of the knockdown genre. |
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| Manfred Knobel<br>Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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tdbuilder
New Member
Posts:67
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| 16 Dec 2008 04:11 PM |
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The above grade is no problem with the TF. We just poured the 2nd story last friday on a big house with 14-45 degree corners and 22-90 degree corners per floor. You put the corner poles on first and then set up the wall. The rest of the wall is internally braced to the floor. I would not have wanted any other system on this house(and I used my share). The down fall was getting the corners off. I went on top and loosened the turn buckles and had one of my guys on a ladder on the bottom. The rest was easy. The more and more we are using the verticle the more and more I am liking it. |
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Buntly
Basic Member
Posts:162
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| 16 Dec 2008 07:49 PM |
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Woulf, what do you mean when you say "TF has a splice every foot that has to be held together or it will separate and bulge at the corners"? I haven't read the TF manual in a while, but I thought the corner braces held the vertical seams together? Also, tdbuilder what do you mean when you say "the rest of the wall is internally braced to the floor"?I have a home which is 30x50 with 4 corners to do in a few months. I have been waiting for a simple job to try TF on, and this is the one. I am going to use the top of the basement wall as a floor ledge to bear the joists on,... and I like that the TF has continuous webs so the top of the wall will remain level thru the pour. It's nice to hear from guys who have actually poured with the product vs hearing a biased opinion from the mfgr.
Thks!!
Bunt |
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| Bunt |
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tdbuilder
New Member
Posts:67
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| 16 Dec 2008 09:03 PM |
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Yes the corners hold it together and when I say internally braced I mean I use Hill Top strong backs (like reechcraft) every 8 feet or so on the inside panel to straighten the wall. That is it. By using the Hill Top strong back I can use regular turnbuckles and 2x4s for the kickers to the strong back. They also sell the plank brackets for them. All together the bracing was cheaper than Reechcraft. With that said it is personal preferance. I like using cheaper 2x4s but the reechcraft adjustable kickers are pretty sweet. When I first started we used 2x4s made into a t and a few shorter 2x4 for a plank bracket, it was kinda crude but cheap and effective. |
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lkazanov2
Basic Member
Posts:177
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| 16 Dec 2008 09:09 PM |
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Bunt,
TF is a good product and elegant design. I have seen a massive home be erected with it. I have been to the training seminars and seen the product in action. The continuous web is the heart of the design. There is no floating in the TF system. In fact, these "slots" that bracing products have to allow a certain amount of settle are not needed with TF. In essence the vertical height started with is the vertical height left with. Also the subs will love the constant 12" OC fastening surface especially for sheetrock. It can make corners easily and you can make any form by simply ripping the EPS and grooving the slots in the edges with a hand held circular saw with 2 blades. The bucks are treated the same. Simply groove the edges to allow for the plastic webbing.
Its weakness: the corners need extensive bracing from the outside. Typically you need to make a 90 or 45 corned from vertical lumber and fasten with 2 diagonal members. They say you can do this before stacking the system. This is the only aspect that concerns me is the strength of the corners. My footprint will not be easily done with a block system. Too much waste. The reason I am leaning to quadlock is the corner. Also to keep the costs down a plastic web is only available up to the 10" system. 12" requires a steel web. This adds costs quickly. With quadlock it is just a different plastic tie. Also I am looking at their brick ledge system where you transition from the 12" to the 6" to create a solid near 4" brick ledge. My only concern with quadlock is the sheet rock guys may hate hunting for the attachments and the fact that the forms may settle or float.
Bunt, I am not a professional ICF guy. Just a reasonably educated and well versed home owner. Who knows, if this thing doesn't land me in the psychiatric ward than maybe I would like to be an ICF spec builder. Will see.
Take care,
Leonard
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TF System
New Member
Posts:4
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| 17 Dec 2008 02:18 PM |
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Hi Leonard
While our corners do have to get braced the rest of our bracing is pretty minimal. I a prevoius post horizontal bracing was mentioned, our system requires no horizontal bracing. Feel free to give us a call with any questions. 1800 360-4634 ext. 211 |
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renangle
Basic Member
Posts:304
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| 17 Dec 2008 03:23 PM |
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Leonard,
I do hope that you have a good experience with your project. That being said, I do hope that you listen to some of the people here that have cautioned that your design is NOT set up well for a Do-It-Yourself job. Your chances of being successful on this (without much if any ICF experience) are not in your favor.
I'm in Central/Western Virginia, I can try and find an installer willing to travel and put up your walls. I'm not trying to question your ability, but having that many 90s and 45s makes your project very challenging. If something goes wrong with the pour and the walls are not straight or you have a few blowouts because it isn't braced properly, the money saved doing it yourself could be wasted on fixing any problems. Worst case is I can certainly get you a specialist to come help the day before and day of the pour. If your design was 4 corners or even 12 corners I wouldn't say anything, but this design is different.
Let me know if you have an interest in talking - renangle |
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lkazanov2
Basic Member
Posts:177
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| 17 Dec 2008 11:26 PM |
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Renangle,
I welcome your concern and appreciate your posts. I did not imagine that my thread would generate that much interest. I do have a very qualified TF and Quadlock certified installer available at my disposal. He will hold my hand (so to speak) and I know I can count him to potentially finish what I could not have done myself.
Leonard
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 18 Dec 2008 09:52 PM |
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Leonard,
I was on two sites with TF. I noticed a 1' spacing between ties. There was little buldges between each one.
Was this because the installer in my area ? How flat was the walls where you went to?
I'm leaning toward a block system with the ties closer.
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tdbuilder
New Member
Posts:67
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| 19 Dec 2008 07:56 AM |
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1" wow he is luck the panels stayed in. That is definitely installer. I don't think I have ever had more than 1/8 " gap from my panels pushing. Leaving the panels loose can lead to problems because the corners are not really locking it together than. The bulges are from either over vibration or pouring too wet, both could have been disastrous no matter what system you use. I have seen many blowouts from over vibration. This also could contribute to some of the gap if the panels were not tight (the proverbial 10 pounds of s**t in the 5 pound bag). This summer we poured some 11' walls with a truss ledge on the inside and a brick ledge half way up at staggered heights on the outside. So I did not have a direct connection from footing to top anywhere and it when better that I could imagine. I was expecting to have an all day project, and we poured and walked off the site in about 4-5 hours. Now keep in mind my crew is very good. We are 4 men crew who all have worked with several ICFs. So for us its easy, for the average home owner this would have been a disaster. Which like mentioned no matter who you go with it wouldn't hurt have a qualified contractor help or at least check over and help pour. |
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ZeroEnergy
New Member
Posts:2
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| 19 Dec 2008 07:15 PM |
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We are www.isomax-az.com and have built clients projects with wood bracing and were less than satisfied....and despite the thought of reuse...the used wood braces are usually warped, split from dis-assembly, or too short after cutting off the split ends. We usually wind up using them to vertically brace the window and doorway lintels. We have definite bracing requirement. We panelize and prefabricate wall segments per the architectural drawings with all window and door bucking already in place. We make our corners two feet by two feet, with rebar built in. And we can make any angle for bay windows, angled walls or other architectural features as well. We just finished a project where the client was worried about heat from his oversize fireplace (a stone unit made in Sweden) melting the foam, so we made a "Composite ICF Panel" fabricated with foam on the one side and a cementious panel on the other side.....We built out around the fireplace sides and back and across in front (above firebox) of the fireplace. That way there was no foam inside the fireplace wall enclosure, but there was foam on the outside of the house and on the interior walls. We have also made our own very robust wall bracing system. We used 3 x 3 x 3/16" steel angles. cut in half from 20 feet lengths. We bought 20 ft. long steel tubing 1 inch dia x 1/8" wall. We cut that at 12 ft and 8 ft. lengths. We bought 20 truckers ratcheting tie down cinches for steel chain from a tools store...cheaper than hardware store turn buckles...but they really are super heavy duty turn buckles. We cut off the hooks and the eye at the left hand thread end and welded the threaded section to the steel tube. We then slotted and welded in a 1/8" x 1.25" x 6" 45° angle steel tab with a hole in the exposed angled end...and Voila... An adjustable ratcheting brace. We attach the angled brace with 12" long 5/16"x 18 threaded stock, washers, nut and a 3 x 3 x 3/18" x 24" long steel angle on the inside. You can adjust(ratchet) that wall right to a laser "line". We use a modified electric fork lift on the inside of the structure (synthetic non-marring rubber tires on the finished concrete floor) to raise and place our very large wall segments. We also have a scissors lift and manual rolling scaffoding. We built a 3150 sq. t. home that had 22 corners, but was comprised of just 162 wall panels total. We are "learning" to make ever bigger panelized ICF wall segments. We built a three bedroom addition onto a existing home (mine) with only 19 pieces total. Check out www.isomax-az.com left side for "More Info", upper right for "Project Photos" and middle right click on "Guest Book" to view more project photos at our blog....the guest book became the blog site...if it helps you...good deal. |
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| Donald Eyermann<br>President "Eyedestu"<br>EYErmann DEsign STUdio, inc.<br>Zero Energy Lifestyle Systems Integration<br>480-985-5750 Hm; 480-516-6487 Cell; 480-924-9731 Fax.<br>Innovating efficiency in living working spaces and transport systems. |
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timothale
New Member
Posts:23
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| 20 Dec 2008 02:33 AM |
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First off you should have got a new architect long ago if he is using you money to design something you really don't feel comfortible with. the Icf contractor should be involved early on in the preplanning stage to give some cost input to your ideas. We started on a owner builder project to help with the foundation on a new Icf home My son counted 176 corners or radius walls total counting 3 stories of Icf.. way to complicataed for an first timer owner builder even if it would have been stick built. He decided we were too expensive and decided to go the ICF alone. there were lots of mistakes and problems I saw when I would stop by to check his progress. renting a bracing system gets expensive when you are doing it with out an experienced crew. every day delay costs you more money. looking at the house plans you probably would be money ahead doing your day job and leaving the GC work to somone with more experience. Pick out interior or some other work you can manage easier. all those 45 degree corners might need some plywood bracing and donuts and # 9 wire to hog tie it together so you won't get bulges. |
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lkazanov2
Basic Member
Posts:177
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| 20 Dec 2008 12:34 PM |
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Posted By timothale on 12/20/2008 2:33 AM
First off you should have got a new architect long ago if he is using you money to design something you really don't feel comfortible with. the Icf contractor should be involved early on in the preplanning stage to give some cost input to your ideas. We started on a owner builder project to help with the foundation on a new Icf home My son counted 176 corners or radius walls total counting 3 stories of Icf.. way to complicataed for an first timer owner builder even if it would have been stick built. He decided we were too expensive and decided to go the ICF alone. there were lots of mistakes and problems I saw when I would stop by to check his progress. renting a bracing system gets expensive when you are doing it with out an experienced crew. every day delay costs you more money. looking at the house plans you probably would be money ahead doing your day job and leaving the GC work to somone with more experience. Pick out interior or some other work you can manage easier. all those 45 degree corners might need some plywood bracing and donuts and # 9 wire to hog tie it together so you won't get bulges. [/quote]
Thank you for the post and the concern. We are excited to get the project started. With regards to bracing and the footprint I am beginning to think that Quadlock may be the best choice. Also I am considering installing the floor system prior to the pour with 16" OC shoring from below (resting on the footers). This would brace the system at least 16" OC and provide a walking platform from above. Some have already done this and have good experience. At " 400 LF I need about 4200' of 2x4x10's. This is about 1500.00 plus the time and nails to setup. I will be reusing the lumber. The ledge will be supported on the perimeter and having the floor joists in one can avoid the ICF-ledge connection from overlapping the joist. For this particular install I am thinking of J bolts (with my engineer providing the spacing) instead the Simpson system. With ledge installed we will drill first throught the ledger and then cut out the foam from the backside to provide a solid concrete-ledger attachment. I will place eithey Tyvek or fabform on the back side of the ledger to protect from moisture. Ideas? Also for a typical J bolt (1/2 or 5/8) how big to crop the foam around it? Quadlock manual suggests the width of the ledger. For us that is 16" (1.9 LVL x 16). I think that may be excessive. Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Leonard
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Buntly
Basic Member
Posts:162
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| 20 Dec 2008 06:27 PM |
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Leonard, I have installed the floor system prior to the pour before and had good results. I actually used steel joists and I did not use a ledger. Why the studs 16" o.c. to support the rim?(unless you are trying to brace the wall with these 2x4's) An Lvl ledger will easily carry the dead load of the floor system at 8' intervals or larger. I would put one at each end of a 16' Lvl and one in the center. I am not sure what kind of floor system you are installing, but with anchor bolts at 12" o.c., I don't believe the depth of the lvl would be an issue so you could save some $$ by going to a 9 1/4" or 11 7/8",.....but then again I am not sure what you are trying to do. One concern I would have, is if you fasten the ledger to the top of your wall prior to the pour and then stud down the the footing under the ledger, any form compression may "twist" the top of your wall. i.e. the outside of the top block will compress while the inside is restrained which may result in a crooked wall. I have found that the quality of the footing and the type of block used definatley affect the amound of compression.
Bunt
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| Bunt |
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Manfred
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 20 Dec 2008 06:56 PM |
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Leonard, I would have the same concerns as Buntly. I would use SimpsonTie connectors or ICF connectors, lastly I would use J-bolts, simply because of ease of installation. At $12 a connect every 3-4 feet I think does not hurt the budget. I have seen your idea done and must say it has worked. I think it depends the height of where your ledger board ends up resting, meaning will it split between 2 courses or is it within one course. Even though, the settling part should make any difference since the dimensional stability is provided by the 2x from the floor. You might have some form seperation, but I think you could live with that. |
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| Manfred Knobel<br>Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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Buntly
Basic Member
Posts:162
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| 20 Dec 2008 07:42 PM |
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VMG, you're probably aware, but I believe TF has panels available with ties at 8" o.c. vs the 12" o.c. std form.
Bunt |
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| Bunt |
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VMG
New Member
Posts:31
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| 20 Dec 2008 07:51 PM |
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Buntly,
Do you know how much more 8" o.c. would cost.
I thought 12" o.c. was all they had.
Vic |
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