Folks, can we drop this subject.  Obviously we are not accomplishing anything.  Nothing I hate more than to do useless things with no hope for improvement.

I was just stating on another subject how i was finally getting some real answers and then you make a post like this. first off a cmu is made of aproximately 92% limestone and 8% cement. thtat is it.limestone crushed to the form of lime is used in water treatment facilities to treat drinking water. The cmu can be used as backfill or driveway fill or whatever,really shows your ignorance. And yes if you want to take back your cmu that have been cut they will just dump it with the scrap pile. How far do they travel. no all cmu do not travel same distance, but rest assured the raw material is not coming from foreign countries. and no i am not saying icfs do i still have not any responses to that question, and i would be willing to bet that 90 percent of all material used in cmu does not travel over 100 miles from where the end user is. now your comment about about the rubber membrane used on cmu. For starter in our area typically a rubber membrane is not used for waterproofing I would even say 1 in 100 secondly your icf does use rubber membrane, thirdly cmu only has waterproofing or possible combustible material on the exterior or sometimes in the core of the unit, i do not think smoke inhalation would be a problem outdoors. so that being said your little tire comment really makes you look like the person who should do a little research before you start bashing cmu.your comment about smoke and flame talks about stick frame but says nothing about formed concrete or cmu which neither one has anything combustible or smoke spread. and yes a cmu can be as strong as an icf,when you compare apples to apples. No an unreinforced 6" cmu wall is not as strong as a reinforced 6" icf but if you do your research one of the companys you give me a link to states that a 12" cmu has an equal strength in a below grade situation as a 6" cavity reinforced icf. No they did not say anything about explosives but I personally if peoples homes start getting bombed we have alot more problems than discussed here. I mean lets get real here, I guess your windows and doors are bomb proof also. you say i am dumbing down this forum and i look the fool, and here you are and the only thing you are really sticking to is icf is blast proof, can it also ward off demons?

Please get back on your meds and give us a break.  Chill out.  Life is too short to be so uptight.

to have a job description as cool sounding as yours, your post sound very uneducated, if you can't comment on my questions and concerns, please quit bashing me and let someone else comment.

ok'  i'll comment
you don't seem to want to educate yourself
you seem more intent on arguing with everyone and comparing apples with oranges to make your point of cmu's being the hot ticket when clearly they are lacking compared to a reinforced concrete wall
i came to this site to learn about icf construction from some of the guys/gals that actually do it because it is a valid way to build a reinforced concrete wall and you seem to be here just to ? be a pita as far as i can tell
nobody here or anywhere else owes you any explanation of why or how things work so get a grip and some manners or get lost

my 2cents

fwiw



 

I see a lot of builders that don't like icf not because they know what they are talking about, but because they fear change or are ignorant. They can build a decent stick built home with their eyes closed so they won't venture into icf because it's out of their comfort zone and requires effort and thought. I had one builder start bashing nudura icf's because he was concerned about mold growth on the blocks. Well the foam on nudura (or any icf as far as I can tell) doesn't propogate mold. I then said, "what about wood and drywall, they can support mold growth right?" The reply said it all..."well yeah I guess if the house isn't built right". I just looked at him waiting for the clicking sound. lol You can "what if" this topic to death, and to some degree thats good. But comparing a good icf home with a good stick built home proves that icf is a better built home. If it's done right, icf should be the only way to go, at least for hurricane, tornado and earthquake zones. So if you live in michigan you can use SIP's. lol JK. ICF's are superior to stick built in every way.

You can have a real discussion but the issue is that you are talking about issues that are possible, but not probable. Yeah a plane could fall out of the sky tomorrow and land on my car on my way to work, but it's not probable. The chances are about 1/1000th of 1% on the high side, and thats your approach here. ICF's are not flawless, they are just much MUCH better than stick built. Anything is possible but if the kind of stuff you talk about was common, banks wouldn't loan money for an icf house and insurance companies wouldn't insure them. But banks and insurance companies do because it is a wise investment barring an act of god. You talk about potential problems and disadvantages. Sure there are some potential issues, but what other options are there? Stick built? Well compare the two and see which wins. ICF is better not perfect. Yes we support icf walls because most of us build with, live in, or sell icf's because we see the value and benefits. I don't see an "I hate icf's" message board lasting very long. lol You seem to want to bash icf's as flawed but if you are looking to build, compare it to other forms of building. Now whats flawed?

Rykerst, here is a post on this forum from a real icf homeowner and in the construction phase. You can't tell me that by reading all these possible issues that icf is superior in almost every way!                                                                                          My wife and I are retired and are constructing an all ICF home. The exterior is complete and work is continuing on the inside. We wanted to build an energy efficient home to minimize recurring costs of home ownership and were willing to spend extra money up front to achieve our goal (2 BTU/SF/HDD.) People often ask me how much more it costs to build an ICF home vs. conventional stick framing. I’m never able to give a satisfactory answer to the question, because it’s an attempt to compare apples to oranges. How much are you willing to pay for greater energy efficiency, wind resistance, and a quiet interior? To achieve the same level of performance in a wood framed house would also cost more.

If you are considering building an ICF house, keep in mind these cost factors:

1. Depending on where you’re building, you may have to pay more for a general contractor experienced in ICF construction. Likewise, subcontractors, who are inexperienced with ICF construction, often pad their quotes to cover themselves for unexpected problems or refuse to bid at all.

2. ICF construction requires more careful coordination between subs. For example, exterior wall penetrations need to be carefully planned and sleeved before the walls are poured to avoid having to bore holes through the reinforced concrete once the location of plumbing, electrical and ventilation pipes are established.

3. In an all ICF house, floor joists are typically attached with hangers to a ledger board which is bolted to the ICF wall. This arrangement is more expensive than conventional deck construction.

4. Windows require wide jamb extensions due to the thick (12”+) exterior walls. Alternatively, you can wrap the interior window openings with drywall, but a wide sill of some durable material is still required. Recessing the windows on the exterior makes for a nice look, but complicates the window flashing and exterior trim.

5. Unless your particular ICF product has corner blocks with embedded anchor strips, you’ll have to wrap the corners with a minimum 28 gauge sheet metal or provide some other means to attach siding and trim at building corners.

6. Siding (e.g., fiber cement lap siding) may have to be attached with screws rather than nails for adequate holding strength. I had to countersink each screw by hand to prevent the screws from compressing the foam and deforming the siding. Attaching furring strips first might have made this unnecessary, but, that too would have cost more in both time and material.

7. Exposed exterior grade-level EPS must be covered e.g., (parged).

8. Compared to a bituminous foundation coating over bare concrete, below-grade EPS must be covered with a more costly peel and stick membrane and/or drainage sheeting (e.g., Platon) to prevent water infusion.

9. Interior basement EPS must be covered with gypsum board or other fire block material.

10. You’ll probably want to beef up the wind resistance of your stick-built or trussed roof to match that of the concrete walls.

11. Because ICF houses typically exhibit low air infiltration rates, you should consider installing mechanical ventilation (e.g., HRV.) Likewise, all gas fired furnaces, boilers, water heaters and fireplaces should have a piped-in combustion air supply.

Can anyone add to this list?
e is a real icf homeowner with real icf issues.

rykert, PS there must be alot of homes hit by planes because if you search thru these forums there is alot of unhappy icf owners with leaky moldy homes, I even saw where one homeowner is losing his lung function possibly do to air issues in his icf home!

and how many people have had issues with mold in stick built homes? Your argument doesn't hold water. You hold up a few examples of icf homes with issues all the while ignoring the hundreds of thousands of stick built with the same or even worse issues! People like to blame icf for their issues when 99% of the time it can be tracked down to 2 things. 1) The builder didn't do something correctly. 2) The owner didn't do his/her research and plan accordingly. Lung issues could just as easily been an issue in a poorly ventilated stick built home as it would be in an icf home.

1. Depending on where you’re building, you may have to pay more for a general contractor experienced in ICF construction. Likewise, subcontractors, who are inexperienced with ICF construction, often pad their quotes to cover themselves for unexpected problems or refuse to bid at all. THAT COULD BE SAID FOR ANYTHING. 2. ICF construction requires more careful coordination between subs. For example, exterior wall penetrations need to be carefully planned and sleeved before the walls are poured to avoid having to bore holes through the reinforced concrete once the location of plumbing, electrical and ventilation pipes are established. PROPER PLANNING CAN PREVENT THIS. 3. In an all ICF house, floor joists are typically attached with hangers to a ledger board which is bolted to the ICF wall. This arrangement is more expensive than conventional deck construction. WHILE THE BRACKETS MAY COST MORE YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THE LABOR SAVINGS MAKE UP FOR THE ADDITIONAL BRACKET COST WITH INCREASED SPEED. 4. Windows require wide jamb extensions due to the thick (12”+) exterior walls. Alternatively, you can wrap the interior window openings with drywall, but a wide sill of some durable material is still required. Recessing the windows on the exterior makes for a nice look, but complicates the window flashing and exterior trim. SIMPLE WINDOW BUCKS MADE OF 2x10 OR 2x12 ETC CNA MAKE FOR A VERY EASY WINDOW INSTALL THAT IS FLUSH WITH INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR WALLS. THIS IS BASIC ICF 101. 5. Unless your particular ICF product has corner blocks with embedded anchor strips, you’ll have to wrap the corners with a minimum 28 gauge sheet metal or provide some other means to attach siding and trim at building corners. WHICH SOLIDFY'S A SUSPICION I'VE HAD ALL ALONG WHEN READING YOUR POSTS. YOU GOT A CHEAP ICF BLOCK. I'VE DEALT WITH REWARD AND NUDURA (AND A FEW OTHER BRANDS) AND NIETHER REQUIRE ANYTHING OTHER THAN MAYBE SOME FIBER TAPE ON TALL CORNERS OR JUST TO BE EXTRA SAFE 6. Siding (e.g., fiber cement lap siding) may have to be attached with screws rather than nails for adequate holding strength. I had to countersink each screw by hand to prevent the screws from compressing the foam and deforming the siding. Attaching furring strips first might have made this unnecessary, but, that too would have cost more in both time and material. WTF??? LOL 7. Exposed exterior grade-level EPS must be covered e.g., (parged). DO YOU MEAN ABOVE GRADE OR BELOW? ABOVE GROUND DOES NOT. 8. Compared to a bituminous foundation coating over bare concrete, below-grade EPS must be covered with a more costly peel and stick membrane and/or drainage sheeting (e.g., Platon) to prevent water infusion. AND HOW WELL INSULATED IS THAT BARE CONCRETE? 9. Interior basement EPS must be covered with gypsum board or other fire block material. SAYS WHO? 10. You’ll probably want to beef up the wind resistance of your stick-built or trussed roof to match that of the concrete walls. AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT A STRONG ROOF ON A STICK BUILT HOME? 11. Because ICF houses typically exhibit low air infiltration rates, you should consider installing mechanical ventilation (e.g., HRV.) Likewise, all gas fired furnaces, boilers, water heaters and fireplaces should have a piped-in combustion air supply. AND A HRV OR ERV ADDS WHAT, $600 BUCKS TO THE WHOLE HOME COSTS? YOUR POSTS LEADS ME TO A FEW CONCLUSIONS. YOU GOT A LOW QUALITY ICF BLOCK, YOU DIDN'T DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU STARTED BUILDING AND YOU GOT A CONTRACTOR THAT WASN'T EXPERIENCED OR AT LEAST NOT AS MUCH AS HE LED YOU TO BELEIVE. IT SEEMS A LOT OF THIS COULD OF BEEN PREVENTED IF YOU WOULD OF DONE MORE RESEARCH BEFORE STARTING BUT YOU DIDN'T AND NOW YOU FIND FAULT WITH THE BLOCK. PART OF THAT MAY BE THE BLOCK, BUT I THINK A LOT OF IT WAS YOUR FAULT. YOU WOULD HAVE A WHOLE LIST OF ISSUES WITH A STICK BUILT HOME AS WELL BECAUSE WHEN YOU BUILD A HOME, THINGS GO WRONG AND THINGS COST MORE THAN EXPECTED SOMETIMES. THATS WHY YOU SHOULD ADD 15% TO THE COST "JUST BECAUSE". YOU FORGOT A RATHER IMPORTANT "COUNTER LIST" IN YOUR COMPLAINING. WHEN IT'S ALL SAID AND DONE YOU WILL STILL HAVE A BETTER HOME THAT IS STRONGER, USES LESS ENERGY, IS SAFER AND QUIETER, AND CAN COST YOU LESS ON HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE (LOOK INTO THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY). ICF'S ARE USUALLY WORTH MORE WHEN COMPLETED THAN THE TOTAL LOAN AMOUNT.

you found a thread about someone that had issues with an icf home. Now lets be fair. Shall I post up the threads I can find of people that have/had issues with stick built? You'd be reading for weeks.

Save your typing fingers ryker. I think most all the rest of us have given up on him.

Don’t feed the troll! Ignore his inane posts and he’ll go away, hopefully.

Oh I am done with it, but I felt I had to address those stupid comments. I won't be replying anymore, but someone could come on here looking for real icf info and read his drivel thinking he has some legitimate concerns, when it's clear he just didn't do his homework and he's now blaming the icf for his mistakes. I think a mod should delete this entire thread.

rykerst,i did not build an icf home, i just copied a post from an icf owner who was just pointing out things that people who are going to build icf homes should know.He did not even say he was dissapointed, you was so busy being so defensive, you did not realize you were calling this other poor guy stupid and he never even said these were problems he was just pointing out things people should know prior to deciding on icf. NOW WHO LOOKS STUPID?

Finally, the truth comes out. Look what he just said someone could come on here looking for real icf info and find out the truth about icf. Not that its all bad either, but there is legitimate concerns everyone should consider before choosing icf, but now they want a moderator to delete this whole thread to sweep the issues back under the carpet and make the forum back to the way it was meaning icf has no faults they are the wonder drug of all building, use icf and all problems are gone!In other words they do not want o forum at all they want a place to do free advertising!!!!!

Well said Do not let them bully you hold thier feet to the fire and make them think

"I did not build an icf home, i just copied a post from an icf owner who was just pointing out things"

That is quite obvious...The person who posted the original post was sharing his experiences, wisdom and thoughts...neither any of which you currently have or ever will have. Hopefully some day (with a lot of professional help) you will achieve the intelligence level of one of those CMU's which you so highly hold in respect. We can only hope.