Just curious....why does Polycrete NOT sell to DIY??  It seems strange to me. They could have someone that works in their company provide consulting to DIY people while building and charge per hour at the least. IMO, it seems that would promote that block and also increase revenue. They could even put a sign in the front yard with their name on it. 

Good question robinnc. All of the ICF distributors I spoke with (Chad O'Mealy Fox Blocks, Mike Morrison Nudura, BuildBlock John Halliday, Jay Jaeger Amvic) offered to visit me more than once during my project to help me get started and inspect before the pour. I ultimately chose Arxx blocks because the local ICF guru Glen Warren is local and will be onsite with me for the first course, the day before the pour and on pour day. Combine that with the fact that his own company (CalPortland/Glacier Northwest) is providing the concrete trucks, rebar and pumping, I can't go wrong. Well I suppose I *could* go wrong, but my confidence rises daily.

Bruce,

I am confused again. Since you only use certified installers with you product, why in your installation manual (page 2 at the bottom where is says dislaimer) does it state the following: "Since Polycrete has no control over installation or workmanship, no repsonibility for results is expressed or implied,."

Any clarification you can provide for this disclaimer would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Ren, it means exactly what it says. I'm not sure what sort of clarification you need. You might want to consider what your company's liability was on that big Charlottesville job. That was an experienced installer, but your company had no control over his workmanship, so even though you sold the ICFs, you had no liability right? You might want to let this one rest for now.

Bruce,

Now you are saying that pouring concrete can MOVE the wall. In your previous post you said this product is necessary since foam and plastic ties are not STRONG ENOUGH to hold up to concrete pressure. So are you suggesting the concrete moves the wall (somehow attributed to the foam and plastic) or that it will blow out since the foam and plastic are not strong enough? Pumping does create pressure and shakes the wall while you pour. It will even cause it to lean away from the bracing slightly, which is why you start with the wall leaning towards the bracing - this allows you to push on the wall after it is poured to get a straight wall (why else would you have an adjustable bracing system?).

And regarding the block not being glued to the footing - that is an entirely different conversation. I suppose I should have said "Assuming the blocks are assembled according to manufacturers recommendations, crooked walls will be achieved only if the installers quits too early after placing concrete." This goes back to using a product that the installer feels comfortable with from a distributor that can provide appropriate tech support (which Nat has done). Using Polycrete will not turn out well if you make a bunch of mistakes while putting it up either. If two people each by a piece of Oak to build a cabinet - one makes a beautiful cabinet and other can't make anything that resembles a cabinet - is it the oaks fault?

Your illustration assumes two identical pieces of oak. That's the flaw. My position is that the the two products are not equal. That having been said, we're getting really busy over here, so I apologize if I don't get back to you guys right away in the future. However, I will try to repond as I am able. Thanks again for your interest.

OK - Oak vs. spruce - still not the woods fault.

Nat - I apologize that this thread has taken a left turn from your original post - best of luck with your project. Be sure to follow installation instuctions and double check all your measurements as you build and I am sure you will be fine. Also, do not hesitate to ask your supplier any questions - that is what he is there for. Happy building!

At the risk of being accused of beating a dead horse back to life, I can't resist making some comments re: Polycrete. I'm sure Bruce will have a comeback, but that's OK. We can take them for what they're worth. After reading Bruce's continual harping about how PC is so much better than every other ICF I decided to look at the installation manual. That's where you learn the mfr's real take about their own block. Here's some of my observations based on my vast (?) experience of building one ICF house using Buildblock ICFs. If any truly experienced installer sees where I'm off base in my comments, please feel free to say so.

1. Anchoring to the footing. PC has a specially made steel track they recommend using. If PC is so strong and stays straight why is a track needed? Some problems with the track. It has got to be a lot more costly than a few cans of foam. You still have to use a chalk line, so that's no different. If the footer is uneven in height then the steel track interferes, or actually prevents, getting a saw under the blocks to do some trimming. The track also interferes using shims to raise a block as needed. I had to do both on my wall, which I did after I had the second course in place and tied together with the first. Makes for a nice stiff starter wall section to work with.

2. The mfr instructions are to use steel hooks to fasten adjoining blocks together end to end. That has got to be more expensive than nylon zip ties, and nowhere near as flexible in how tight the blocks get pulled together.

3. [deleted and I'm too lazy to renumber all the rest!]

4. The blocks are not reversible except end to end. Not a big deal, but it sure was nice not to have to keep rotating the Buildblock blocks to get the orientation correct! Grab and set, grab and set, and so on.

5. PC blocks have got to be more pricey than other ICF blocks. Look at the mfr process to make them. You take two slabs of XPS, attach the metal strip with loops welded on it to to the slab by punching the loops through the slab, then glue a second slab on the side with the metal strip, offset edgewise so the final assembly has a ship lap configuration. Then you take two pairs of slabs and assemble them together with wire links. Compare all that to the standard ICF where you insert a bunch of premade webs into a mold, close the mold, and inject the styrofoam. Open the mold, take out the block, and put it on a pallet to ship. In fact, I think price is why they refuse to sell to the DIY market. DIYers are a lot more sensitive to material cost than are contractors. Contractors have to factor in labor, which is secondary for a lot of DIYers, and so PC can bamboozle a contractor into seeing a lower overall installed cost.

6. The horizontal web strips in PC mean if you want to use anything other than 6" or 12" o.c. siding you have to install vertical nailing strips upon which to fasten the siding. In some climes this may be recommended anyway, regardless of block type, but it's not necessary in all climates.

7. Corners are complicated. They recommend cutting two different blocks in two different configurations and then using them in opposite corners. Because the corners are not one piece you need to use a steel sheet angle on the outside and inside of the corner to hold the blocks together. So you have the cost of the steel angles and the time to fasten it altogether. Hmmmm, with the Buildblock all I had to do was grab a block off the pallet, orient it with the long leg either right or left, and put it on the stack. Why the hell would I want to muck around with all that cutting and screwing with PC?

8. Bracing recommendations are the same, so no benefit there by using Polycrete. The final straightness of a wall depends on the positioning of the braces, so how does PC offer a benefit there? In fact, I think the greater stiffness of PC blocks compared to EPS blocks could be a hindrance in getting the wall lined up after the pour. And Bruce, don't try to tell me you can have the PC wall absolutely straight before the pour and stay straight. Braces have slack in the connections and that slack has to taken out in the final adjustment. Empty walls don't offer enough mass to do that reliably. That's why most installers lean the wall slightly inward against the braces and then push them into alignment after the pour.

9. Window and door openings are the same as with other ICFs except for two things, one a plus, the other a minus. XPS is harder and denser than EPS so you can get cleaner cuts in the foam. Big deal, right? The webs and cross ties are steel. Obviously, every one you cut you have to use a hacksaw blade, not just any ol' wood cutting blade like you can to cut plastic webs. Now, to me, that is a big deal!

10. The webs are steel, so for ease and speed of fastening drywall you need to use steel stud drywall screws. Another added cost over ICFs with plastic ties.

11. Since the webs are steel, you must use screws to fasten siding. With plastic you have the option of using nails. I did, and the siding planks are on just as securely as they would have been with screws. And you can't use a nail gun to drive screws!

12. Polycrete touts the strength of their blocks. Why is that such a critical factor in block selection when we hear very little about blowouts in EPS blocks? I had no blowouts whatever with my Buildblock walls.

Well put - but you should be attaching your siding using screws in any type of ICF. I know of many builders that use nails and they seem to hold well (I have never seen any fall off). However, I don't know of any ICF manufacturer that would warranty against it if it did fall off.

Posted By ICFBdr on 20 Apr 2011 04:58 PM
Well put - but you should be attaching your siding using screws in any type of ICF. I know of many builders that use nails and they seem to hold well (I have never seen any fall off). However, I don't know of any ICF manufacturer that would warranty against it if it did fall off.

Buildblock forms have a reinforced section in the web every 8" vertically. I used 8" siding and spiral shank siding nails. I drove the nails into the reinforced sections. A test I did beforehand showed the nails would pull through the Hardiplank long before they would come out of the web. I also put a nail into every web so they are spaced 6" o.c. horizontally. I don't think there is any way the planks are going to come loose!!

Thanks for your thorough review, dmaceld. You're pretty much right on everything but you kind of got it all backwards. First of all, remember that this form is designed for commercial construction. For starts, not many installers use the steel wires to connect forms end to end or on the corners, and if you do want to use something, zip ties work fine. Steel starter base keeps your wall solid all the time, and it's very fast. We are going to begin making it to fit other ICFs as well, since it is a system all should use.Steel track eliminates the need for shims, as you have a whole 1-1/2" of sheet metal to cheat with.

Molded corners are a weak point. Polycrete doesn't make them. They aren't necessary since Big Block's steel wire reinforcement gives the form enough structural integrity to just cut back the inside panel and butt 'em together. Fewer parts to order (or mis-order). Fewer stuff laying around the jobsite. Aluminum corner guide is a stroke of genuis, but is designed to work with the horizontal fastening strip. Set the first course. Stand up the corner guide, Plumb it to the starter base, and your corner will always be plumb. It will not move. You can just run with your forms. Check it, but don't worry about it. Your professional Polycrete installer will have the corner guides in stock.

Blocks are not reversable because the horizontal fastening strip eliminates the need to orient your studs. There aren't any! Horizontal strip is always where it needs to be. And you can attache your partition wall wherever it needs to be because you don't have to find a stud. If you want to use horizontal siding, you have to fur it out. That's life. Remember, this is a commercial product and not too may commercial buildings use vinyl siding. Always screw and/or glue your sheetrock. Who wants to bang in nail heads and re-spackle 6 months from now?

You may also notice that there's no need to glue or tie successive courses together, Big Block is so big,that you'll get two braces on each form. Screw the braces to the fastening strip, and you have a big solid wall before you pour the concrete. If you look at the ACI tables, you will see that a form designed to withstand 1600 lbs per sf of lateral pressure allows you to pour 10 foot lifts even in winter conditions. And get this -- the ship lap design allows the weight of the concrete to actually lock successive courses together. Finally, the 4mm steel wire reinforcement inside the EPS panel requires you to know how to use a circular saw with a carbide blade. Most Polycrete installers use a 14" gas powered demo saw anyway because it's there, it works and it's fun.

Remember guys. Labor costs are a big deal in the commercial construction world. You may pay 10% or 15% more for the material, but save 50% on your labor. Like I've been saying, this is a big time serious ICF product. (Arrrrrgh! Can you see me flexing my biceps?)

Oh, one other correction dmaceld, this is EPS, not XPS. However, Polycrete uses a full 1.5 lbs of polystyrene per cubic foot of foam. Most of your other ICFs are using 1.35 lbs and still calling it Type 2. Polycrete does not skimp in the EPS or the steel.

By the way, Dmaceld, you have this product design and manufacturing process completely wrong! The EPS panel is molded around a 4mm steel wire mesh welded into an 8" X 3.5" grid that spans the form from end to end! The engineered bends in the wire mesh extend into loops that the cross ties are fastened to. It's a very sophisticated and highly automated process. And then it folds flat for shipping so there's twice as many wall square feet on the truck.

All bamboozling aside, Dmaceld, it really is all about the final installed cost. Basic economics. Your labor is never free, even if you do consider your time to have no value, I bet your wife would disagree.

Bruce do me a favor and get your own thread. I've already told you that you are not welcome to respond in my thread. Stop being an asshole please.

Posted By natjwest on 21 Apr 2011 01:10 AM
Bruce do me a favor and get your own thread. I've already told you that you are not welcome to respond in my thread. Stop being an asshole please.

Right. Especially since he flat out states that Polycrete's target is commercial work and you're doing a DIY house basement walls project.

Nat, did not know that telling the truth makes one an a$$hole. nor was I aware that you can actually own a thread. As I mentioned on another forum, I'm here to learn, teach, amuse and be amused. Since there are far more readers than posters on these sites, we are careful not to leave any misinformation unaddressed. Have a nice day.

Bruce, I have one question. I am not trying to be confrontational, just curious and looking for an answer.

When using the steel tracks, how is the form leveled if the footing is crowned up at the center?

Also - a 10' lift should not be done by code (in my area, at least) - code states concrete should be poured at 4' of lift per hour (and I realize nobody follows this rule).

After you finish punching out the guy who did the footer, you run the starter base up to within a foot or two on each side of the hump and bridge it. The sides of the starter track are 1-1/2" tall, so you have a lot of room to cheat. If the hump is much more than an inch, you're going to have to cut it out.

Regarding the 10' lift, check the ACI tables. They tell you how strong the forms need to be for various heights and temperatures. Polycrete knows that its 2-1/2" in Big Block 1600 withstands at least 1600 lbs/sqft of lateral pressure. They have recently experimented with minor modifications that can handle a lot more. The 1-3/4" foam product, Big Block 1200 can stand up to 1200 lbs/sqft.

Most ICF manufacturers have no idea how strong their forms are, so the watchword is caution. Polycrete, however knows exactly how strong the other major ICF products are, because they have tested them.

I just cked polycrete web site and it clearly states their product is for commercial and residential. I'll ask again, why don't they sell to DIY for residential??????

I have trained the importance of the Dur-o-wall/Form-lock/Arxx-lock for at least 15 years to get straight walls with ICF's. Now I have changed brands of ICF and started to experiment with Dur-o-wall again. I had dozens of actual jobs use the Dur-o-wall on 1/2 the walls and nothing on the other walls. There was no difference in the end result and it did not take longer to get the wall straight. I know I needed Dur-o-wall with the other ICF's I've used but with FoxBlocks it is not necessary simply because the EPS is a full 1.5lb density and the ties touch vertically limiting any movement during concrete placement. This is saving me over $300.00 for every job I'm on! The photo of the FoxBlocks wall using Dur-o-wall must be old because FoxBlocks does not even sell the Dur-o-wall anymore.

Bruce,......why are you avoiding my question??? Also, where is your block made?? Below is a copy from your web site.  How can you 'Buy American' when it looks like you import and distribute??

BSG Products, LLC is the U.S. Importer and Distributor of the Polycrete® Insulated Concrete Form System.

The United States Department of Defense  and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers have approved the product for use in government structures, we comply with all Buy American rules in government contracting, and Big Block meets or exceeds all local building code requirements.