Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Mar 2012 12:35 AM
What about the balcony/deck? That appears to be outdoors.

Yes, that is outdoors but that is either going to be Trex or a step down concrete deck. I now see where you are going with this. You are saying that there will be no thermal break in the concrete where the patio goes outside and is exposed to the exterior. Is that what you mean?

Yes, that is what I mean.

First off, LBear, where are you building to know how much of an issue this is going to be.

If you are in a northern climate, the outside temp will effect the inside slab temp, tests have shown as much as 6' in my area, this is compensated for by infloor heating in the slab

Chris, does that give you a nice snow melting side benefit out there on the slab?

It does for about 6" or so, also has the infloor heating system work a little harder as well. Fortunately with this winter no snow so not noticeable

Posted By Chris Johnson on 08 Mar 2012 08:06 AM
First off, LBear, where are you building to know how much of an issue this is going to be.

If you are in a northern climate, the outside temp will effect the inside slab temp, tests have shown as much as 6' in my area, this is compensated for by infloor heating in the slab

Did you mean 6" or 6' ?

The home would be located in the Chino Valley, AZ climate area:

Average Temps For Chino Valley AZ

Of course the underside of that concrete slab will be insulated all the way to the interior wall portion but there will be the upper portion which will have 4 feet exposed to the exterior. Where the interior space stops (french doors) and then the walkout balcony begins.

A good example of how to build an elevated Quad-Deck floor:

several years ago I build a three story, all concrete (walls, suspended slabs, roof) house on a mountainside in Alaska that has 175 mph straight line winds. We had a 12' cantilevered deck at the second level. The detail Baldwin shows is similar to how I isolated the interior hydronic heated floor from the frigid Alaska environment of the deck area. It is not hard if you know something about how to build with concrete. The trouble with ICF and Insuldeck type products is that it appears so easy it allows people to build with concrete who have no business building with concrete.

Do you see what the illustration is terming "girder reinforcement"? That is what I referred to as "large reinforced concrete beams and piers/footings below"

For someone who pontificated about the relative cost of ICF and wood framing, it would surprise me if you want to undertake this. There will be substantial cost in those footings and built-up beams and not sure what the benefit over conventional construction would be.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 08 Mar 2012 09:36 PM
Do you see what the illustration is terming "girder reinforcement"? That is what I referred to as "large reinforced concrete beams and piers/footings below"

For someone who pontificated about the relative cost of ICF and wood framing, it would surprise me if you want to undertake this. There will be substantial cost in those footings and built-up beams and not sure what the benefit over conventional construction would be.

Pontificate? The pope pontificates as he speaks ex cathedra.  


In a wood framed design, I would still need to have a 18" deep footing, with substantial width, and the bottom portion of the pier would still need to be reinforced concrete. The upper post area would have been a 12" - 18" solid peeled pine pole (say that fast 5 times) to support the upper wood framed section but it would be sitting on a reinforced concrete pier, which would be subsequently sitting on a concrete footing. Either way, ICF or wood, I still need a concrete footing with a concrete bottom pier. If that footing needs to be enlarged by 3-4 feet and if that breaks the bank, then I will have to rethink everything.

No matter what design, wood, ICF, SCIP, whatever, it always comes down to $$$. If the home cannot be built the way I prefer it to be built due to exuberant costs, I might scrap the whole thing and stay put where I am at. I believe that either it is done right the first time or don't even do it at all. I live in a tract home now and it hasn't collapsed on me yet and if I have to live here for the next 10-20 years, so be it.

Posted By teslastones on 08 Mar 2012 09:21 PM
several years ago I build a three story, all concrete (walls, suspended slabs, roof) house on a mountainside in Alaska that has 175 mph straight line winds. We had a 12' cantilevered deck at the second level. The detail Baldwin shows is similar to how I isolated the interior hydronic heated floor from the frigid Alaska environment of the deck area. It is not hard if you know something about how to build with concrete. The trouble with ICF and Insuldeck type products is that it appears so easy it allows people to build with concrete who have no business building with concrete.

Which begs the question, how expensive was that 12' cantilevered deck you did on the second level?

I did not charge any more than for the 30' clear span suspended floor that it connected to. The biggest issue was the uplift factor (the overhang became weightless at 70 mph and negative bar was added to compensate for the uplift at winds above that)
We bid against firewood construction which was more expensive given the location and the fact that such inferior methods at above 125 mph wind loads are really just red iron with firewood kindling infill.
This was well out of the fire protection area so the guy's couch was his deductible (self ensured so to speak)

Posted By teslastones on 08 Mar 2012 10:56 PM
I did not charge any more than for the 30' clear span suspended floor that it connected to. The biggest issue was the uplift factor (the overhang became weightless at 70 mph and negative bar was added to compensate for the uplift at winds above that)
We bid against firewood construction which was more expensive given the location and the fact that such inferior methods at above 125 mph wind loads are really just red iron with firewood kindling infill.
This was well out of the fire protection area so the guy's couch was his deductible (self ensured so to speak)

As you mentioned, the concrete/ICF choice I made is based upon strength and longevity. While not as extreme as that Alaskan area, the area I am in has a fire danger to it, along with termites, rodents, seismic, and sees 75MPH+ winds at times. For me personally, I want to do it in concrete or not to do it at all. No point in building a dream home but constantly regretting the fact that it was built with wood and worrying about the issues with wood builds in that area.

Do you have any pics of that build you did?

Posted By Lbear on 08 Mar 2012 10:16 PM
If the home cannot be built the way I prefer it to be built due to exuberant costs, I might scrap the whole thing and stay put where I am at.

For some reason, bear, I think you really did mean exuberant and not exorbitant!

Do you have any pics of that build you did?

There has been a lot of water under the bridge since then--and it was not all water!

I not only have pictures, I have video. Some is of the second level suspended slab and deck being poured in 85 MPH winds.
I know it is not recommended. When the mud is coming from 60 miles away, the trip to the site is half a day in and of itself, it is always blowing, etc, etc, you bend the rules sometimes.
If I can find them I will share them privately.

For some reason, bear, I think you really did mean exuberant and not exorbitant!

LOL. The costs are only exorbitant after you get the bills. In the planning phase they are simply exuberant.

but it would be sitting on a reinforced concrete pier

All reinforced concrete is not the same. What it takes to support a composite floor and support girders is quite a bit different in terms of steel, labor and volume than what you generally see supporting conventional construction.

If you have to have it for fire resistance, that is one thing, but you might also consider fire-resistant coverings or a wash-down system.

several years ago I build a three story, all concrete (walls, suspended slabs, roof) house on a mountainside in Alaska that has 175 mph straight line winds.

Hmmmm....the highest wind speeds recorded in Alaska are out in the Aleutians at 139 mph. Over land it is more like 100 mph or less.

LOL you are surely the expert. Have you ever been there??
What happens on a mountain top where there is no "official" weather station is not going to show up on a google search
Chechakoos are great entertainment

LOL you are surely the expert. Have you ever been there??

Aleutians, Bering Sea, Yukon, mountains, North Slope, SouthEast, ....yeah, I've been there.

What happens on a mountain top where there is no "official" weather station is not going to show up on a google search

I've also noticed that wherever there are no "official" weather stations, people tend to get creative with their reporting.

Chechakoos are great entertainment

Ummmm.... it's Cheechako