Posted By BrucePolycrete on 04 Mar 2013 12:11 PM
This is actually a great advertisement for using very large ICFs with steel ties. The steel ties have far less surface area than plastic and that prevents them from floating the ICFs. Also, a very large ICF makes it easier to get at least one and possibly two braces on each block/form. Finally steel ties make for a much stronger ICF that allows you to use a standard vibrator with no fear of blow out. I'd recommend a 16 sqft ICF. I'd also recommend a DIY-er hire an experienced pro to work alongside. These sort of installation abominations give our entire industry a black eye.

Bruce - I think that might be stretching things just a wee bit!! As mentioned the problem here was not screwing the braces to to Logix correctly and using Logix (with out ties). On block like Nudura and IntergraSpec, the webs lock together top to bottom, so the blocks don't float or compress. Logix (and some others) still don't do this. Logix tells you to wrap 36" plastic ties around the web and this will stop the float. There is little evidence that the steel ties are stronger but in any case all the mainstream blocks can be vibrated internally with out danger of blowout assuming two things
The concrete is ordered and placed as per the block manufacturer's spec.
and the placing crew understands concrete.
I will give you that on a simple wall layout, the bigger the block the quicker and often stiffer walls result. On the other hand when you need to meet commercial steel placement codes which might call for horizontal bar every 12 inches, the big blocks are a problem. doubly so if you need to place stirrups or ties. Even on a complicated residential job, the big blocks tend to get in the way. Also big blocks on a complicated job tend to produce more waste.
but hey, thats just my opinion!

You have it upside down. The big blocks are designed for commercial construction.

Posted By Lbear on 04 Mar 2013 03:17 AM
Watch the video that goes along with this article. I almost fell off my chair! They did NOT vibrate the walls. Some shirtless guy with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth went around with a hammer and block and banged on the wall in some spots. I think he should have turned the hammer on himself. UNBELIEVABLE! No wonder there are 10" voids throughout this structure. They did not install vertical rebar footers until AFTER the stack and the never tied the vertical with the horizontal!

The rebar could have easily pulled away/shifted during the pour.
Actually for some reason if they are left loose the placing of the concrete will usually center them in the web space and even if it did not it would not reduce their design strength provided the bar is restricted to the space between to webs.



ICF gets another black eye.

YOUTUBE VIDEO

When this homeowner goes to hang drywall and install a window on his out of square and plumb wall, that will be a disaster. I am really appalled by this crew and Logix needs a good kick in the a** for their rep not having a grasp and control of the build. He should have supervised the build and pour much better. This project is being followed by GBA and is receiving national attention and Logix can't find a qualified rep to send to the job site to put on a good game face and for PR? What a joke. Logix needs to get its act together or simply leave the business.

The ICF consultant showed the crew how to stack a row of ICF and then disappeared and did not come back to the job site until the day of the pour. Are you kidding me? I would have fired him on the spot and kicked him in his a**.

The poor homeowner chimed in:

"I am very disappointed with our foundation walls, and I would not use this crew again to assemble and pour an ICF wall. I expected much tighter tolerances in plumb and level of the top course.
..but each window after that had increasingly larger voids, to as much as 10" below the bottom of the window. This is below grade, so I was very concerned that freeze/thaw cycles would simply crush the foam block over time."

Maine dosen't get much sun so they have to max out on the Vit. D when they can ;-)

They epoxyed the bar to the footing which is quite acceptable.


There is no need to tie the verts and horizontals together. They perform separate functions. Often the verts are wet set i,e, they are placed after the pour to allow the splice to stick up for the second floor wall without endangering the placing crew.

Homeowners like voters tend to get the results they deserve!

In the video, it would certainly seem that nobody has a great deal of experience including the pump operator. The amount of time the pump appears to allow for a thirty foot drop is scary. A pro would have made sure that just flex was vertical and that the last section of pump was much closer to horizontal. We normally lay the flex right on the wall and allow the concrete to only free fall inside the wall. This might not be possible with Logix.

As to placing foam in the core at the bottom of the wall for a thermal break, I believe they would have been much better off to place the foam under the footing and encapsulate the footing. The footing will still steal heat from the floor slab plus the psi of just the core is much higher than if you allowed the footing to spread it out. That is why we use footing after all.

Posted By Ray Gladstone on 05 Mar 2013 10:24 PM
You have it upside down. The big blocks are designed for commercial construction.

Ray not sure if you got censors but a couple of questions.
If you need to have two pcs. of bar every 12 inches vertically, would you not have to drag the lower two in from the end? How would you place the corner 90º bars? How would you tie the lower bar to smooth wire and make sure they don't crowd the foam? Yes all this is easier in a ten inch core but still a pain!
If a plan calls for a big bay door and it is half way in the height of a block, how do you reuse the portion cut out?
I can certainly show you both Nudura and Integra that have less than 3/16" movement on 22' high walls.

I'd like to apologize if Ray Gladstone has offended anyone on this forum. His enthusiasm for Polycrete products sometimes gets the better of him and he can be abrasive. We've asked him to refrain from posting here for a while until he can get his outbursts under control.

To answer FBBP's question about the 90 degree rebar angles, Polycrete does not use molded corners, they're all cut and butt so reinforcing corners is a breeze. There's also some pics on the site that show how lintels for commercial roll-up doors are made on the ground and set in place with a crane. BTW. You can get three block heights, 12', 18" and 24". And yes, you do slide the rebar in from the end. It goes very quickly.

The system is intended to be used by professional concrete contractors, so it was designed to meet their needs. Take a look at the system when you get a chance it really is quite different from residential-type ICFs. For a real surprise, have a look at some of the secure (blast-proof) buildings the system has been used on, and you'll be amazed at the amount of rebar that's in the wall and consolidation was not at all a problem. If anyone has more questions, please feel free to send me a private message.

They are now advertising a "DIY ICF" seminar and they claim that after taking this 6 hour ICF course you can then begin to build your own ICF home.

It take 2 years of full time training in order to be able to pour/place concrete on your own in other countries. Here a 6 hour course will have one stacking and pouring blocks like its nobody's business.

I guess the urgency to sell ones block is more important than the long term reputation ICF has. How many fly-by-night GC's will be trying to build ICF homes in the next year? I guess we will have more articles to read about how another ICF job got completely botched by someone without the experience to do it right. The green building community can then add another black mark on ICF.