At least you are consistent with your condescending attitude.

Let me get this straight. You are upset because I promote air sealing? I hope you understand that it is preferable "these days" to seal. What you put effort into on your own place is up to you, but that is no reason to make attacks on others.

I just checked out the Fox Buck. Looks like the best buck specific I have seen, however carpenters and GCs will still resist since they can't use nails. but they could use plywood the same thickness as the drywall under the trim, like I push for the baseboard.

Posted By ICFconstruction on 06 Nov 2013 04:04 PM
I just checked out the Fox Buck. Looks like the best buck specific I have seen, however carpenters and GCs will still resist since they can't use nails. but they could use plywood the same thickness as the drywall under the trim, like I push for the baseboard.

It does solve the problem of dissimilar materials and the wood buck issue. To date, no other ICF manufacturer has come up with a 100% EPS window/door buck. Here are some videos on it:

FOX BUCK VIDEO

FOX BUCK VIDEO 2

Regarding the baseboards. Do you install a plywood strip at the wall/floor area and then put the drywall on top of that plywood strip? This would give you a nailing flange area for the baseboards, correct?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Nov 2013 03:42 PM

At least you are consistent with your condescending attitude.

Let me get this straight. You are upset because I promote air sealing? I hope you understand that it is preferable "these days" to seal. What you put effort into on your own place is up to you, but that is no reason to make attacks on others.

You didn't promote air sealing.  You gave a condescending statement.  That's why people like me "attack" you.  Either learn how to say what you want to say without being condescending, or keep it to yourself? 

You are truly amazing.  You insult others with your condescending attitude, and then you get mad when people don't like it.  I guess I will never stop being amazed with people like yourself.

Posted By Lbear on 06 Nov 2013 04:31 PM

Posted By ICFconstruction on 06 Nov 2013 04:04 PM
I just checked out the Fox Buck. Looks like the best buck specific I have seen, however carpenters and GCs will still resist since they can't use nails. but they could use plywood the same thickness as the drywall under the trim, like I push for the baseboard.

It does solve the problem of dissimilar materials and the wood buck issue. To date, no other ICF manufacturer has come up with a 100% EPS window/door buck. Here are some videos on it:

FOX BUCK VIDEO

FOX BUCK VIDEO 2

Regarding the baseboards. Do you install a plywood strip at the wall/floor area and then put the drywall on top of that plywood strip? This would give you a nailing flange area for the baseboards, correct?

I just watched both videos, and the problem I see with the fox bucks with regards to my windows is that I don't have a flange.  They probably feel that most people are using American windows that usually come with some kind of flange.  My windows and all of the windows that I saw from my vendor don't have flanges, and I am thinking it is like that for many European tilt/turn windows.  Also, because I have aluminum windows, I need to contact the window buck/box in a particular location, and it is parallel to the wall,  i.e. it goes from the opening into the concrete/foam.  Whereas, I see that the fox buck is assuming that there is a flange, and it will attach from the inside/outside wall, and it is perpendicular to the wall.  Also, from what I see, the attachment is assuming the window is flush to either the outside or the inside, but it can't be anywhere in the middle   I guess you can use a buck for a 4" core on a 6" wall or something to move the attachment point by 2". 

Also, I am not sure how they would work if I want to use drywall into the edge of my window, i.e. my window frame sits the drywall thickness away from the wall.

Anyway, the fox bucks won't work for me.  I need to be able to contact anywhere on the buck, and so we are going with nearly 3" of window buck and window box.

Just as an FYI for lbear, I have an Intus window 2 0 x 4 0, and it is an aluminum clad wood window, and it doesn't have a flange either.  It was a sample sent to a friend of mine, but he didn't want it because the glass was broken, and I thought I could use it when I try and build a play house for my kids.

Anyway, I am not sure if the Fox bucks will work well with the Intus windows either, but I am not sure if the sample I have is representative of all of their windows.  Maybe, they sell a flange on some of their windows, but they didn't include it on this sample.

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 05:19 PM

Just as an FYI for lbear, I have an Intus window 2 0 x 4 0, and it is an aluminum clad wood window, and it doesn't have a flange either.  It was a sample sent to a friend of mine, but he didn't want it because the glass was broken, and I thought I could use it when I try and build a play house for my kids.

Anyway, I am not sure if the Fox bucks will work well with the Intus windows either, but I am not sure if the sample I have is representative of all of their windows.  Maybe, they sell a flange on some of their windows, but they didn't include it on this sample.

You have your windows selected then, right? The reason I ask is, as you may already found out, there are no standard sizes across manufacturers for windows like there is for doors. If you make the hole the right size for an Andersen window, then a Pella or Marvin likely will not fit. This is one area of the house where the final selection drives the design and construction.

Posted By dmaceld on 06 Nov 2013 05:43 PM

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 05:19 PM

Just as an FYI for lbear, I have an Intus window 2 0 x 4 0, and it is an aluminum clad wood window, and it doesn't have a flange either.  It was a sample sent to a friend of mine, but he didn't want it because the glass was broken, and I thought I could use it when I try and build a play house for my kids.

Anyway, I am not sure if the Fox bucks will work well with the Intus windows either, but I am not sure if the sample I have is representative of all of their windows.  Maybe, they sell a flange on some of their windows, but they didn't include it on this sample.

You have your windows selected then, right? The reason I ask is, as you may already found out, there are no standard sizes across manufacturers for windows like there is for doors. If you make the hole the right size for an Andersen window, then a Pella or Marvin likely will not fit. This is one area of the house where the final selection drives the design and construction.

Yes, my windows are actually already loaded into a container, and they are waiting for one client who only ordered one door or window, and they are tagging along in my container.  i guess I should charge the guy because I had to pay for the shipping container.  Anyway, I only found out a couple of days ago how the window attaches to the house when the installer showed me how it works with a sample window.  On my window, every so often, there is a hole in the frame that is isolated from the aluminum by using the same material that they used to separate the inside aluminum from the outside aluminum.  This hole has a screw in it which acts as a built in shim.  The screw has a hollow center, and the nail or screw or whatever that is used to connect the window to the house will use this hole.  Because the holes are fixed, and my head height for all of my windows are the same, I don't have the option of trying to make it match to any kind of tab.  I need to have the flexibility to contact anywhere, and so I definitely need a system that is more flexible than the fox block.

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 05:19 PM


Anyway, the fox bucks won't work for me.  I need to be able to contact anywhere on the buck, and so we are going with nearly 3" of window buck and window box.

With the Fox Buck you are able to use the entire area for any attachment points for the windows. The buck has attachment points throughout the bottom, sides, top, and it doesn't matter where you install it within the window buck area because the attachment areas are from interior to exterior foam, the entire buck area is one huge attachment point.

That is what makes the buck so great. When I spoke to Fox Block they stated that the buck was designed for people looking to install any type of window within any area of the buck. So windows that don't have flanges like yours and most other European windows, the buck works perfectly with them.

Utilizing attachment brackets like those used by Intus or using frame anchors, the buck easily allows attachment on deeply recessed (innie) windows. The buck was specifically designed for flangeless or flanged windows.

If you don't want to utilize the attachment strips within the buck, you can use TapCon screws and anchor directly into the concrete that surrounds the entire buck area.

Another option is to use a Fox Buck to make the window/door buck area as a rough opening. You can then go back and install NON-treated wood on top of the EPS. A piece of plywood or OSB all the way around the buck area but the OSB would be on top of the foam. One would anchor the OSB into the window buck area by running a screw through the OSB and into the Fox Buck attachment strip areas.

Then you can install the window anywhere within the buck area and you have the 1/2" OSB all around and you can attach the window by screwing into the OSB using Euro attachment brackets or frame screws.

Posted By Lbear on 06 Nov 2013 07:59 PM

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 05:19 PM


Anyway, the fox bucks won't work for me.  I need to be able to contact anywhere on the buck, and so we are going with nearly 3" of window buck and window box.

With the Fox Buck you are able to use the entire area for any attachment points for the windows. The buck has attachment points throughout the bottom, sides, top, and it doesn't matter where you install it within the window buck area because the attachment areas are from interior to exterior foam, the entire buck area is one huge attachment point.

That is what makes the buck so great. When I spoke to Fox Block they stated that the buck was designed for people looking to install any type of window within any area of the buck. So windows that don't have flanges like yours and most other European windows, the buck works perfectly with them.

Utilizing attachment brackets like those used by Intus or using frame anchors, the buck easily allows attachment on deeply recessed (innie) windows. The buck was specifically designed for flangeless or flanged windows.

If you don't want to utilize the attachment strips within the buck, you can use TapCon screws and anchor directly into the concrete that surrounds the entire buck area.

http://www.foxblocks.com/news/insulated-concrete-forms/the-fox-buck-take-the-wood-out-of-windows-and-doors/

If you look at the still photo of the video, you will see mostly space on the cutaway buck. 

The buck on the narrow side is nearly 100% attachable.  On wide side, it is only attachable every 8".  With wood windows, you can attach at every 8", so you are okay.  I can only attach where the window manufacturer provided me a contact point, and I doubt that it is 8" on center for every size window that I used.

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 08:38 PM


http://www.foxblocks.com/news/insulated-concrete-forms/the-fox-buck-take-the-wood-out-of-windows-and-doors/

If you look at the still photo of the video, you will see mostly space on the cutaway buck. 

The buck on the narrow side is nearly 100% attachable.  On wide side, it is only attachable every 8".  With wood windows, you can attach at every 8", so you are okay.  I can only attach where the window manufacturer provided me a contact point, and I doubt that it is 8" on center for every size window that I used.

If you don't or can't utilize the attachment strips within the buck, you can use TapCon Concrete Screws and anchor directly into the concrete that surrounds the entire buck area.

Intus Windows uses adjustable brackets that go into a channel within the window frame area and they can be positioned wherever you need them to be. The brackets are also bendable so they can be positioned properly:



Here is the window installed with Tremco expanding tape around the perimeter of the window & Grace Peel & Stick to protect the wood and provide flashing.:

Either learn how to say what you want to say without being condescending, or keep it to yourself?

Is that another question?

You seem like a sensitive person. My suggestion would be that if you sense it is condescending, then keep your feelings to yourself.

LVL and plywood use the same formaldehyde glues, and at final inspection in new construction, formaldehyde is going to be the chemical that tests at worrisome levels. But ICFhybrid writes, bucks are completely buried in walls, and if you have air movement around them, you have a bigger problem than IAQ. LVL is structural, meant to sub for dimensional lumber in sizes that are hard to find any more. Plywood is sheathing.Because you only need an attachment surface, LVL is way overkill for window bucks.

Controlling moisture is job number one at doors and windows. If you have water inside the envelope you will soon have mold inside the envelope and far worse air problems than a few sticks of PT lumber. Your ICF sub presumably knows how to build a watertight window. Letting him do his thing is smarter than forcing something new on him.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Nov 2013 01:16 AM

Either learn how to say what you want to say without being condescending, or keep it to yourself?

Is that another question?

You seem like a sensitive person. My suggestion would be that if you sense it is condescending, then keep your feelings to yourself.

If you continue to be condescending and insulting to me, I will call you on it.  Just like I had a typo with my punctuation, and that's all you can provide.  You are just like every other bullying dick in this world.  We have the Miami Dolphins being roasted due to this type of behavior, and you continue to do it, because you can't see that you are doing the same exact thing.  You think that the person receiving your inane and condescending comments is sensitive and should just suck it up or go away.  Please.  I will not go away.  Why don't you go away until you can play nicely.

Posted By toddm on 07 Nov 2013 08:18 AM
LVL and plywood use the same formaldehyde glues, and at final inspection in new construction, formaldehyde is going to be the chemical that tests at worrisome levels. But ICFhybrid writes, bucks are completely buried in walls, and if you have air movement around them, you have a bigger problem than IAQ. LVL is structural, meant to sub for dimensional lumber in sizes that are hard to find any more. Plywood is sheathing.Because you only need an attachment surface, LVL is way overkill for window bucks.

Controlling moisture is job number one at doors and windows. If you have water inside the envelope you will soon have mold inside the envelope and far worse air problems than a few sticks of PT lumber. Your ICF sub presumably knows how to build a watertight window. Letting him do his thing is smarter than forcing something new on him.

My ICF sub, foreman, and GC are the ones that are proposing to use LVL.  That is what they did on their previous ICF homes.  The ICF supplier suggested to use vbuck or insulbuck because that is their solution for window bucks.  The window installer liked the idea of something solid, so he liked the LVL versus the vbuck after it was described to him.

My building crew normally builds their own bucks.  They have used other types of wood products before like PT wood, and after trying a bunch of wood products, they like the LVL the best for a variety of reasons.  The reason they were considering vbuck was because my architect and the ICF supplier mentioned it to them, and I also mentioned that I have heard of a bunch of different windows bucks, and then they did a little investigating.

So, on my project right now, everyone is agreeing to use LVL, and I just came to the forum to get an idea if it is a good idea because most people mention vbuck, insulbuck, fox buck, PT wood, etc, but no one mentioned LVL.

Currently, the plan is to use Siga products to do all of the flashing, sealing, etc.

Posted By Lbear on 07 Nov 2013 12:06 AM

Posted By eugenep on 06 Nov 2013 08:38 PM


http://www.foxblocks.com/news/insulated-concrete-forms/the-fox-buck-take-the-wood-out-of-windows-and-doors/

If you look at the still photo of the video, you will see mostly space on the cutaway buck. 

The buck on the narrow side is nearly 100% attachable.  On wide side, it is only attachable every 8".  With wood windows, you can attach at every 8", so you are okay.  I can only attach where the window manufacturer provided me a contact point, and I doubt that it is 8" on center for every size window that I used.

If you don't or can't utilize the attachment strips within the buck, you can use TapCon Concrete Screws and anchor directly into the concrete that surrounds the entire buck area.

Intus Windows uses adjustable brackets that go into a channel within the window frame area and they can be positioned wherever you need them to be. The brackets are also bendable so they can be positioned properly:



Here is the window installed with Tremco expanding tape around the perimeter of the window & Grace Peel & Stick to protect the wood and provide flashing.:

My window installer uses something similar when he is installing wood windows, but because my windows are aluminum, I can't have a bracket which touches the inside aluminum and the outside aluminum because it will destroy the thermally separated nature of my windows.  I guess because of the windows that I have chosen, I limited myself to the possible ways to do window bucks, but at least, everyone that is doing stuff for my windows all agree, and so I have my solution.

I will not go away.

You might be surprised.

You are just like every other bullying dick in this world.

It wasn't too long ago you had some name-calling problems with other posters. Name-calling can escalate emotions. I hope you will re-evaluate the way you approach discussions here and tone it down.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 07 Nov 2013 02:04 PM

I will not go away.

You might be surprised.

You are just like every other bullying dick in this world.

It wasn't too long ago you had some name-calling problems with other posters. Name-calling can escalate emotions. I hope you will re-evaluate the way you approach discussions here and tone it down.

I hope you follow your own advice.  you are the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black.  you are an amazingly egotistical self righteous dick.  The problems arise for the same reason as this one.  People post totally incorrect and insulting messages, and then they get mad when someone like myself responds.   why don't you stop posting inane stuff?  "You might be surprised".  The same continued shit. 

Getting back to the spray foam around the windows, this is from an article in Fine Home Building:

"If you’re lucky and have a builder who is careful and up to date, the window will be sealed at the perimeter with expanding spray foam, which works OK as an interior air-and-water seal. During blower-door tests, though, we regularly see air leakage through brand-new expanding spray foam. (The air seems to travel right through the “folds” in the foam—pockets of foam that don’t quite expand completely before they skin over.) These leaks occur even before the lumber dries and shrinks away from the cured spray foam. We’re convinced that water travels right through most spray foam installations around windows, especially under the pressurized conditions of a Maine nor’easter." (emphasis mine)


The air and water leakage occurs BEFORE the lumber dries and shrinks away from the cured foam. Even flexible cured foam is not flexible enough to bridge the gap when the wood pulls away from the spray foam. So if spray foam is leaky from day one (as verified by numerous blower door tests and building science experts), how leaky does spray foam get over the course of 5+ years after the wood dries and pulls away?


FINE HOME BUILDING

Ok......let me ask a dumb question for anyone here. Your supposed to 'caulk'  around the outside perimeter of the window. How is air/water going to get thru that?