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ICF Effective R-value
Last Post 07 Jan 2015 08:07 AM by sailawayrb. 103 Replies. |
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sailawayrb
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| 05 Jan 2015 08:08 AM |
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Newbostonconst,
“What happens in the ICF wall when a brick ledge is installed?
How much is the R-value of the wall lowered?
As far as I see it the brick ledge ties the brick wall to the center mass of the ICF making the whole wall appear to have less exterior insulation. but by how much?”
Just to be 100% clear, this program only determines the effective R-value of the ICF. It is does not include other wall buildup R-values that would also need to be considered to determine the total wall assembly R-value (e.g., inside air film, sheet rock, exterior siding, outside air film, etc).
Yes, a brick edge tied into the ICF concrete would create thermal bridging through the ICF exterior EPS. However, the thermal bridge area is relatively small. Brick adds additional exterior concrete R-value and air space R-value which would counteract the thermal bridging. I would recommend treating this just like you would treat 2 x 4/6 construction (i.e., the 2 x 4/6 stud thermal bridging based on the percentage of stud area of total area) and just calculate the “whole” wall R-value accordingly.
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smartwall
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| 05 Jan 2015 08:40 AM |
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What about the effect of ground coupling as part as the answer to the swings in the winter and spring temps ? The ground temp is highest in the early fall and lowest in the early spring. |
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sailawayrb
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| 05 Jan 2015 10:42 AM |
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Smartwall,
Yes, ground temp wicking was discussed in quite some detail earlier in this thread. The program doesn’t currently include the ground temp wicking effect, but this could certainly be added. The general consensus seems to be that ground temp wicking would be a relatively insignificant secondary effect compare to the ICF thermal mass effect. I suspect ground temp wicking becomes more significant as the difference between the outdoor temp and ground temp increases. |
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FBBP
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| 05 Jan 2015 11:13 AM |
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When the interior/exterior insulation is removed, the effective R-value went to R0.77 (i.e., 1.12 times higher than the new conventional R-value).
If bare concrete is R 0.77 how is this 1.12 time higher then conventional or what is conventional in this case? |
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sailawayrb
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| 05 Jan 2015 11:45 AM |
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Posted By FBBP on 05 Jan 2015 11:13 AM
When the interior/exterior insulation is removed, the effective R-value went to R0.77 (i.e., 1.12 times higher than the new conventional R-value).
If bare concrete is R 0.77 how is this 1.12 time higher then conventional or what is conventional in this case? This was when all the ICF EPS insulation was nearly removed (i.e., I entered 0.01 for the interior/exterior EPS thicknesses). The conventional R-value was R0.69 (R0.60 from the concrete plus R0.09 from the remaining EPS) and the program predicted effective R-value was R0.77 or 1.12 times this conventional R0.69. I used R0.1 per inch for the concrete and R4.5 per inch for the EPS. You can certainly use different R-values if you prefer too. The observation here is that with or without the EPS insulation, the ICF effective R-value tends toward the conventional R-value as the concrete thickness is decreased. As the concrete thickness is increased, the ICF effective R-value tends toward the maximum possible effective R-value (which is about 3 times conventional R-value for our Summer outdoor temp profile)…even without ANY insulation. No real surprise with this observation, but this does show the program is providing the results that would be expected. |
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craigtoo
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craigtoo
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Posts:98
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| 05 Jan 2015 02:28 PM |
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Fun thread all... Thank you. Sail, How does your program take into effect wind (or even rain)? Or should it? In my mind, the same house, at the same outside temperature would give up far more heat in a 30mph wind (if the outside temperature is lower of course). The exterior of the house will be pushed to take on or give up heat at different rates not only due to a temperature difference between the outside air and surface of the wall, but also due to wind speed, RH etc. etc. etc. I ask that only because you compared your results to "field data". Wouldn't it be difficult to compare the two as a smell check because of this environmental impact? Also, comparing it to conventional "laboratory demonstrated" R-Values would be difficult given all the reasons described previously in this thread - temperature changes over time; thermal mass etc. So, in the end - What does this number tell us, or how can we be sure it's right? I can't really compare it to an R-Value that's published and based on lab trials, nor can I compare it to field studies because those conditions were anything but controlled. I think it's time you built the giant "BORST Environmental Estimate - R-value Simulator" B.E.E.R.S.  I know.. I know..."Effective R-Value".... You're not looking for "R-Value" ... but still I just don't think a comparison is possible. My walls are R66 in the summer and R23 in the winter?  Now, I need a beer. Where's my Stein?  -C2 |
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dmaceld
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Posts:1465
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| 05 Jan 2015 02:59 PM |
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Sail, I was just thinking wildly about all this. Your calculations do factor in specific heat of the concrete, right? At what guesstimated thickness would seasonal temp variations come into play, 2 ft, 10 ft, something in between? The reason I'm asking is that sometimes when people are trying to comprehend the meaning of a calculation using extreme, and sometimes even ridiculous, values can make the picture easier to understand. How does a wall of 1/4" concrete compare to a wall of 15 feet of concrete? The effective R value of 15' of concrete would be extremely high since the heat flow due to temperature swings outside would probably never reach the inside surface, and the heat flow from inside out would be near constant in the winter in a cold climate. The fluctuation differences in a 4" wall vs. a 6" wall are harder to visualize than a 1" wall vs 24" wall. Of course, the validity of extreme values depends on how linear the calculation is between those points. I know sometimes a non-linear formula is needed to approximate reality, but does so only on a limited range of values. Are you having to deal with that in your program?
Think about a climate where the cooling degree days are equal to heating degree days. Disregarding the effect of solar heating on the outside surface there should be a thickness of concrete, with no insulation, where the heat flow in and out averages out to zero over an annual cycle. That would result in an effective R value of infiinity, right?
Does your program factor in outside surface heating due to insolation? I know my walls get very warm from the sun. The external insulation of course allows that temperature to be higher.
Like I said, I'm just thinking wildly!
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sailawayrb
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Posts:2283
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| 05 Jan 2015 03:16 PM |
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Thanks Craigtoo!
This program only uses the indoor/outdoor temp profiles plus the ICF design parameters that you feed it to determine the effective R-value of the ICF given the increased thermal resistance effect that ICF generates when it sees cyclical temps…really no different than determining reactance in an AC circuit. As such, this ICF effective R-value can be compared to conventionally calculated R-value…just like electrical AC reactance can be directly compared to electrical DC resistance. However, infiltration, ground temp wicking effect, solar heat gain, increased convective heat loss from wind, rain, or any other non-R-value effect is NOT currently considered by the program. My intent in developing this program was to only quantify the thermal mass performance of ICF and NOT attempt to add additional effects that would likely also apply to non-ICF wall assemblies too.
Heat Flow equals delta temp times the inverse of the R-value. If you know the indoor temp and concrete temp as a function of time and you also know the actual R-value of the interior EPS, you can determine the total thermal mass heat flow in/out of the building interior. If you know the indoor temp and outdoor temp as a function of time and you also know the actual R-values of the interior EPS, concrete, and exterior EPS, you can determine what the total conventional heat flow in/out of the building interior. Similarly, you can determine the heat flow into the concrete as a function of time which allows determination of the concrete temp as a function of time. If the total thermal mass heat flow is less than the total conventional heat flow, you know the ICF is performing as if it has a higher R-value…which most folks term as a higher “effective” R-value. So if you properly calculate these total heat flows, then take the ratio of these total heat flows, and then multiply this total heat flow ratio by the conventional R-value, you can precisely determine what this ICF effective R-value is for the entered indoor/outdoor temp profiles and the entered ICF design parameters.
From our energy analysis I can state emphatically that our ICF walls perform exactly like any R62 wall would perform in Summer and perform exactly like any R22 wall would perform in the Winter. I can also state the program predicts very similar R-value performance given our ICF design and our Summer/Winter outdoor temp profiles. What one then does with this information is an entirely different matter and separate discussion… I am just very happy that the program now appears to successfully quantify the thermal mass performance of ICF!
Nope, my husband is fully charge of our home micro-brewery and he does a fine job with this, LOL!
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sailawayrb
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Posts:2283
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| 05 Jan 2015 03:39 PM |
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Dmaceld,
Your specific questions/comments and my responses follow:
“Your calculations do factor in specific heat of the concrete, right?”
Yes, specific heat and density of concrete is used to determine the concrete temp as a function of time.
“How does a wall of 1/4" concrete compare to a wall of 15 feet of concrete? The effective R value of 15' of concrete would be extremely high since the heat flow due to temperature swings outside would probably never reach the inside surface, and the heat flow from inside out would be near constant in the winter in a cold climate. The fluctuation differences in a 4" wall vs. a 6" wall are harder to visualize than a 1" wall vs 24" wall. Of course, the validity of extreme values depends on how linear the calculation is between those points. I know sometimes a non-linear formula is needed to approximate reality, but does so only on a limited range of values. Are you having to deal with that in your program?”
I actually ran and reported how the program handled these concrete/EPS extremes previously in this thread. This is what gave me increased confidence that the program is robustly calculating the effective R-value. The program just does what I explained to Craigtoo and I didn’t have to do anything to address non-linear computational effects. In fact, that was the discussion I had with Dave previously in this thread and my motivation for using the total conventional heat flow and the total thermal mass heat flow to accomplish the effective R-value calculation. The only issue that I am currently aware of that causes the program any grief is if the total conventional heat flow and the total thermal mass heat flow end up being contrary total heat flows (i.e., one is heat gain and the other is heat loss). When this happens, the program would calculate a negative effective R-value, which of course would not have any rational meaning. So if this happens, the program just reports the effective R-value as “Unknown” and one would have to take a close look at the hour-by-hour report-out to better understand this. BTW, I recently added hour-by-hour effective R-value report-outs to help folks better understand what is happening real time. These hour-by-hour effective R-value report-outs are NOT used for anything other than this increased understanding. Thus far, I have not found an outdoor temp profile that has caused this issue to occur.
“Think about a climate where the cooling degree days are equal to heating degree days. Disregarding the effect of solar heating on the outside surface there should be a thickness of concrete, with no insulation, where the heat flow in and out averages out to zero over an annual cycle. That would result in an effective R value of infinity, right?”
The program does NOT use cooling/heating days nor does it “average” anything. The program only uses the entered 24 hour indoor/outdoor temp profiles as previously explained. It is certainly true that during the real time calculations (each 36 second time step), there may be calculated conventional heat flow rates or thermal mass flow rates that are zero or infinite. However, this is reality and the program just digests and integrates these heat flow rate calculations to get the total 24 hour heat flows. It would be inappropriate to exclude these singularities because they are indeed real as Dave and I previously discussed. The program doesn’t have any problem digesting these singularities and doesn’t show any non-linear or unusual behavior. Of course, this is to be expected since this is accomplished by numerical integration which is a robust and stable process.
“Does your program factor in outside surface heating due to insolation? I know my walls get very warm from the sun. The external insulation of course allows that temperature to be higher.”
Seems like this is the third or fourth time I have been asked this question. The answer is still NO for the same reasons…LOL!
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craigtoo
New Member
Posts:98
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| 05 Jan 2015 04:55 PM |
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Posted By sailawayrb on 05 Jan 2015 03:16 PM
Thanks Craigtoo!
This program only uses the indoor/outdoor temp profiles plus the ICF design parameters that you feed it to determine the effective R-value of the ICF given the increased thermal resistance effect that ICF generates when it sees cyclical temps…really no different than determining reactance in an AC circuit. As such, this ICF effective R-value can be compared to conventionally calculated R-value…just like electrical AC reactance can be directly compared to electrical DC resistance. However, infiltration, ground temp wicking effect, solar heat gain, increased convective heat loss from wind, rain, or any other non-R-value effect is NOT currently considered by the program. My intent in developing this program was to only quantify the thermal mass performance of ICF and NOT attempt to add additional effects that would likely also apply to non-ICF wall assemblies too.
What about small to medium sized house pets? (kidding... really...) 
Heat Flow equals delta temp times the inverse of the R-value. If you know the indoor temp and concrete temp as a function of time and you also know the actual R-value of the interior EPS, you can determine the total thermal mass heat flow in/out of the building interior. If you know the indoor temp and outdoor temp as a function of time and you also know the actual R-values of the interior EPS, concrete, and exterior EPS, you can determine what the total conventional heat flow in/out of the building interior. Similarly, you can determine the heat flow into the concrete as a function of time which allows determination of the concrete temp as a function of time. If the total thermal mass heat flow is less than the total conventional heat flow, you know the ICF is performing as if it has a higher R-value…which most folks term as a higher “effective” R-value. So if you properly calculate these total heat flows, then take the ratio of these total heat flows, and then multiply this total heat flow ratio by the conventional R-value, you can precisely determine what this ICF effective R-value is for the entered indoor/outdoor temp profiles and the entered ICF design parameters.
Thanks for the explanation...! I understand what you've done. I have no basis upon which to argue the math.... I've used your calculator... But I guess I struggle with the question you're trying to answer. Your model allows us to input 24 hours worth of temperatures. A "typical" Summer day, or Winter...etc. And we get an R-Equivalent for that set of conditions. It's a snapshot. It answers the question "What is my Effective R-Value Today?"
Here's what I mean... if someone asks me the R-Value of my wall and I live in a conventional framed house I would say (as an example) "R30". But, if they ask me about my ICF home I would have to say (as an example) "R22 - R66 depending upon temperature difference and soak time...and..."
*blink* *blink* Then the person labels me a geek, and takes my beer. 
Wouldn't a more relevant question be.... "What is the Effective R-Value of an ICF wall in Kalamazoo, MI...?"
You've tried to address this by adding the "Concrete Initial Temp" field, but you're still making me do all the work...! C'mon! Allow us to add monthly average environmental temperature over a year, build the daily chart using min/max . Then, do some math magic on the "Effective R-Value" and I can have a one number answer, for one zip code, for an entire year. Then, we can proudly declare that my walls are R32.8...!  And the mean guy doesn't take my beer... (It's really all about the beer...)
We can call it "Borst Value"...
Thanks again for your consideration... (No good deed goes unpunished..!) 
-C2
From our energy analysis I can state emphatically that our ICF walls perform exactly like any R62 wall would perform in Summer and perform exactly like any R22 wall would perform in the Winter. I can also state the program predicts very similar R-value performance given our ICF design and our Summer/Winter outdoor temp profiles. What one then does with this information is an entirely different matter and separate discussion… I am just very happy that the program now appears to successfully quantify the thermal mass performance of ICF!
Nope, my husband is fully charge of our home micro-brewery and he does a fine job with this, LOL!
FANTASTIC!
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 05 Jan 2015 06:01 PM |
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You point is well made Craigtoo! To achieve a single annual effective R-value, one would have to fed the program a year’s worth of indoor/outdoor temp profile data for the specific “zipcode” that was desired. That is certainly possible and what is actually done in some total energy analyses, however, accomplishing this given the huge amount of data this would require using our JavaScript based program that operates off of your browser would be very problematic! The other consideration is that you might actually prefer to know and understand how your ICF effective R-values varies by season as this provides more useful information in designing your HVAC system than just having a single annual effective R-value. It sounds like you really want to extend this discussion beyond just being able to successfully quantify ICF effective R-value to a different discussion on how one might use effective R-value to better design an energy efficient building?
I can tell you how I think we will use this information... We won’t be using this ICF effective R-value information for anything other than increased understanding of how ICF actually performs…because we now fully understand and fully appreciate that ICF effective R-value is NOT a constant value at ANY location and treating it as such would be erroneous. ICF effective R-value varies significantly depending on the actual daily indoor/outdoor temp profiles. So we will essentially use the ICF heat flow calculation “engine” used in this program to develop a better control system algorithm for use with our passive solar designs that also use ICF. In short, for us, being able to more accurately forecast the actual real time ICF heat flow as a function of the actual daily indoor/outdoor temps is much more beneficial than knowing the daily, seasonal, or annual ICF effective R-values.
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arkie6
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Posts:1453
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| 06 Jan 2015 12:13 AM |
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As I see it, the usefulness of the ICF wall effective R value comes into play when you are designing your heating and cooling system. For determining the home cooling load you would use the summer time effective R value and the summer design conditions at your location. In the examples above for Oregon you can see that the size of the cooling system for an ICF home could be much smaller than the cooling system for a home of similar design with low mass walls. For determining the home heating load you would use the winter time effective R value and the winter design condition at your location. In the above Oregon example, the ICF wall doesn't gain you much over the similar design low mass wall in winter conditions other than it will likely have much lower air infiltration over the life of the home due to the inherent nature of the concrete walls. The Spring and Fall effective R values don't really come into play when designing your HVAC system since the overall heating/cooling loads are generally very low during these times. |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 06 Jan 2015 12:47 AM |
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Precisely Arkie and I really couldn’t have stated this any better than you did!
BTW, thanks again for catching the error with the whole wall R-value procedure in the instructions. I corrected/refined this procedure.
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Lbear
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| 06 Jan 2015 01:07 AM |
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There is no doubt that there will ALWAYS be "detractors" of ICF and its thermal mass and the Effective R-Value. Most of those will come from the timber industry Any wall assembly/build-up is only as good as the air tightness of the wall itself. One can have a R-40 wood frame wall but if it leaks air all over the place, what's the point? ICF walls are by nature air tight while wood frame walls are not. It takes a lot of diligence and extra labor to make a wood frame wall air tight. 95% of contractors out there don't know how or don't care about taping and caulking wood frame walls. |
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craigtoo
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Posts:98
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| 06 Jan 2015 09:09 AM |
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Posted By sailawayrb on 06 Jan 2015 12:47 AM
Precisely Arkie and I really couldn’t have stated this any better than you did!
BTW, thanks again for catching the error with the whole wall R-value procedure in the instructions. I corrected/refined this procedure.
Arkie, Sail, Thanks both for your responses. I do appreciate them. I'm sorry to dwell on this. But it seems we keep agreeing on everything but when I run the numbers I'm not really getting useful data that I can use to "argue my point" with an HVAC guy. Here's what I mean... INPUTS:
Indoor Temp set to 70 deg. Outdoor temp: 0000 69 0200 68 0400 67 0600 70 0800 74 1000 79 1200 85 1400 90 1600 89 1800 83 2000 76 2200 74 It's a fictitious "summer" temperature profile. I consider it to be reasonable, but it is not based on measured data. All other settings are default, and the initial concrete temp is left blank. OUTPUT:Conventional R-Value:23.3 Effective R: "Unknown" Effective R by Hour: 0000 23.42 0100 34.87 0200 46.16 0300 57.04 0400 67.37 0500 33.31 0600 0.00 0700 UKN 0800 UKN 0900 UKN 1000 UKN 1100 UKN 1200 UKN 1300 UKN 1400 UKN 1500 UKN 1600 INF 1700 1351 1800 737 1900 430 2000 240 2100 185 2200 139 2300 50 I suspect that the HVAC guys that are quoting my new ICF home are definitely "over spec'ing" my cooling system. I don't want to get into that debate here, but rather understand how I can use this information to make good decisions. I think this makes sense... "UKN" happens at "Negative R" when the outside temp is rising, but the indoor temps aren't really moving at all, in fact - they may be dropping. "INF" happens when you reach max temp and it starts to move the other direction. So, you're switching from a negative number to positive, then the R values peak out and start to drop as the wall heats up, but the outside temp drops. Yes. Conceptually, I understand. So, in this typical summer profile - which R-Value could we use in a "high mass" HVAC calculator to accurately determine cooling load? (Or should high mass calculators already take this into effect and it really doesn't matter...) Or, is the intent of this to use a specific R-Value from a specific time in a manual J style calculator? Thanks again for your patience in answering these questions. -C2 |
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craigtoo
New Member
Posts:98
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| 06 Jan 2015 09:17 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 06 Jan 2015 01:07 AM
There is no doubt that there will ALWAYS be "detractors" of ICF and its thermal mass and the Effective R-Value. Most of those will come from the timber industry
Any wall assembly/build-up is only as good as the air tightness of the wall itself. One can have a R-40 wood frame wall but if it leaks air all over the place, what's the point? ICF walls are by nature air tight while wood frame walls are not. It takes a lot of diligence and extra labor to make a wood frame wall air tight. 95% of contractors out there don't know how or don't care about taping and caulking wood frame walls.
Heh. I'm pretty active in the timber industry... and I'm building an ICF home... Shhhhhhh!!!  The main reasons I like ICF 1) Air tight (and subsequently Energy efficient) 2) Strength 3) Appearance |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 06 Jan 2015 09:17 AM |
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Yes, all very true Lbear. Of course, it is also true that there will ALWAYS be over-zealous advocates of ICF who make overly generalized and exaggerated claims about ICF performance, and most of these will come from people who have a vested interest in ICF marketing success. As I always discover, when considering any propaganda, always follow the money and the truth will become very clear!
If we accept that the program is accurately determining the effective R-value, we are faced with the dilemma that you raised earlier. Namely, that most industry heat gain/loss analyses will grossly under-estimate the effective R-value for ICF resulting in a grossly over-sized HVAC system. For example, my summer time effective R-value is nearly three times the conventional R-value. However, given that effective R-value is not a constant value (i.e., it is a variable value in even the same location depending on the actual daily indoor/outdoor temp profile) some additional judgment is required in properly sizing the HVAC system. As we all know, the building approval process is more regulation driven than judgment driven…
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 06 Jan 2015 09:34 AM |
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Interesting Craigtoo, you managed to find the one issue with the program that I mentioned previously:
“The only issue that I am currently aware of that causes the program any grief is if the total conventional heat flow and the total thermal mass heat flow end up being contrary total heat flows (i.e., one is heat gain and the other is heat loss). When this happens, the program would calculate a negative effective R-value, which of course would not have any rational meaning. So if this happens, the program just reports the effective R-value as “Unknown” and one would have to take a close look at the hour-by-hour report-out to better understand this. BTW, I recently added hour-by-hour effective R-value report-outs to help folks better understand what is happening real time. These hour-by-hour effective R-value report-outs are NOT used for anything other than this increased understanding. Thus far, I have not found an outdoor temp profile that has caused this issue to occur.”
Presumably, both the total conventional heat flow and the total thermal mass heat flow are small and of opposite signs causing the program not to know what “goodness” is for this condition (i.e., is reduced heat gain or reduced heat loss “goodness”) and therefore unable to determine the effective R-value?
The best advice I could provide at this moment would be to use the conventional R-value when this "Unknown" situation occurs. I would also suggest that you use Weather Spark to create an actual daily outdoor temp profile for your location that perhaps might not have this issue.
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icfbound
Basic Member
Posts:120
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| 06 Jan 2015 10:10 AM |
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Thank you everyone for providing this great info. I am not sure I fully understand it all yet but I appreciate it! |
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