Tap cons are not a commercial product. Joe homeowner who attaches anything to concrete uses a tap con - commercial construction is more likely to use power actuated fasteners that most homeowners either don't have or in some cases aren't licensed to use. Tap cons are so simple and easy that anyone can use them. Any sub who is "scared" of a job like yours shouldn't be hired in the first place. You are much more likely to find subs with commercial experience than those with ICF experience - and if they do have ICF experience, expect to pay a premium. Don't be goaded or intimidated into settling for less than you want - or go ahead and settle, it's your dream.

Putting electrical in cast-in-place can be done.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5655295_install-electrical-concrete-walls.html

Also, code has specs for masonry walls. No engineer needed, unlike icf.

Don't worry - I'm not taking it as discouragement, just caution for things to look out for.  Now I know that I need to possibly talk to commercial contractors or subs - maybe I'll get lucky and find someone who's between jobs and won't charge me terribly high for a small job.  These are the problems I need to know about so that I can either find a way to work around them or at least be ready for them, otherwise they'll smack me in the face.  That happens enough in regular life without it getting into building this house:)

One thing about looking at concrete in this area that I didn't think about (but is really accurate) is that while concrete isn't a completely wild idea in home design, it's not terribly common at all where I'm building.  Not only that, but I'm building in a highly rural area, which will mean that there are even less tradesmen locally, so I'll need to both start a lot of this research much sooner, and possibly branch out further than if I were choosing traditional materials.  MUCH better for me to know these things ahead of time than to find out later and scramble.  Most paste-eaters can read a building code when they have the internet and enough time, and even though I'm hitting a bit higher than that on the smarts, I still am not a builder.

It also gives me time to think about other creative solutions in advance.  In my son's room here, as an example, I'd thought of mounting a 2x8 about 4' long to the wall studs about 1' from the ceiling.  That way, rather than mounting every single thing (TV, monitor, noisemaker, camera, yadayada) to the wall, I'd mount them to the painted 2x8, and mount the power supply to a hook on the back.  That way, I'm only drilling four holes in the drywall to fix later, rather than tons of them.  I might be able to approach this in a similar fashion.  Given the advance knowledge that this isn't common practice, I can take a bit of time in advance to plan something similar to either kneewalls or whatever you'd call one of those mounted towards the ceiling, and I can run electrical or whatever through those.  I can even take an approach to make them decorative, with patterns or whatever sounds interesting, and have an aesthetically interesting solution to a problem that might otherwise be a bear.

Most problems are solvable if you're willing to be creative and flexible - but they become a horrible pain in the backside when you never see them coming.  Any problem I can anticipate now is one that I have a chance to work around (and tons of money and stress to save later)

Posted By mojoe on 15 Apr 2016 07:44 PM
Tap cons are not a commercial product. Joe homeowner who attaches anything to concrete uses a tap con - commercial construction is more likely to use power actuated fasteners that most homeowners either don't have or in some cases aren't licensed to use. Tap cons are so simple and easy that anyone can use them. Any sub who is "scared" of a job like yours shouldn't be hired in the first place. You are much more likely to find subs with commercial experience than those with ICF experience - and if they do have ICF experience, expect to pay a premium. Don't be goaded or intimidated into settling for less than you want - or go ahead and settle, it's your dream.

I don't know why you are addressing me personally as if I am inquiring about my own project.

As far "dreams" go when it comes to house building. It always comes back to the reality of what one can afford. If you have an unlimited budget you can build whatever your "dreams" call for but reality sets in when you have a budget and construction costs rear their ugly head. Once you have to call in commercial trades then get your checkbook out because things will get really expensive, really fast. Some commercial trades will not even entertain a residential job because it's not worth their time and effort.

Most residential builds don't use tap cons, that was my point. Wood frame is the most popular residential framing material and TapCons are not commonly used.

In the end it comes down to price. Get quote for ICF and then get a price for tilt-up or pour in place concrete walls with exposed concrete that will require chase runs, interior framing and a lot of extra work to have a completed wall assembly. Plus the availability of commercial trades who are even willing to entertain the idea of doing residential work.

What ICF offered was a way for residential home builders to get the strength and advantages of concrete walls that was only seen in commercial builds. The better R-Values. The simplicity of being able to finish the interior and exterior using residential trades. That's what ICF offers to the homebuilder.

Any residential build that needs to attach anything to the concrete foundation, chimney, or masonry is likely to use a tap con but you are right that tap cons aren't used in wood - that's why they're called tap cons and not tap woods. Thanks for that. There is no need to call in any commercial trades. If you plan on going with things like metal studs, exposed elec. conduit, etc. You may want to get a quote from a commercial sub because they will be more familiar with those materials but most people can deal with them without issues. Commercial trades are probably almost as expensive as the ICF "specialists". House building is no different than anything else when it comes to "dreams". It always comes down to what you can afford so that isn't really breaking news, either. What people should realize is that it ALWAYS costs more than what you plan or budget for no matter what type of construction you choose. Things come up along the way that were unforeseen and decisions need to be made that will be determining. Usually there is a choice of options with the most preferable costing more - no surprise, right? You will be very glad that you allowed a considerable budget for the unforeseen extras that are sure to arise.

maria, it's hard to really get a grasp on what you have planned because you spoke of bare concrete walls and now you are talking drywall on studs? It sounds like 1 story? What are the dimensions? Since you aren't a "builder", if you have the land already, why don't you build a small shed. You could even build it where you are now and trailer it if it isn't too far. The concept and techniques are the same except for the concrete part. If you want to familiarize yourself with the materials and tools, there's no substitute for experience. If you don't have one, get yourself a cordless hammer drill - a good one not a pos. 18V minimum. Drill some holes in some poured concrete - not a concrete block, they are soft and don't have any aggregate except sand. Screw a piece of 2x4 to the concrete with a tap con. If you don't have basic skills and understanding, you should just sub everything out. If you have the basic skills, you could just look for someone local who can provide the overall knowledge and manpower for the things you can't do yourselves. Some places let you pull your own permits and act as your own GC. Some places even let you do your own plumbing and electrical which is no big deal if you have a little guidance. Things like shark bite fittings work great on pex and copper and make anyone an instant plumber. My first lesson in plumbing many years back came from an old timer who told me," Hot on the left, cold on the right and s**t doesn't flow uphill." There is slightly more to it than that but don't be intimidated. Electrical is similar. If you don't know how or aren't allowed to make connections, you could still do most of the work like drilling holes and running wire or putting the conduit in the concrete walls.

actually Simpson Tie has a new concrete anchor called "Titans" exceptional anchors very easy to use, as far as an ICF experienced architect Robert Klob, you can find him on the web at ICF Builder Group, he is on the board.
cheers!

The drywall I was talking about was in our current house - I was mentioning using the wood panel as doing wall attachments differently in general, not to say that I'd want drywall in the new house.

I may still go with the Buildblock Hardwalls - the cost of concrete formed walls really might be cost prohibitive in this area.  There is one contractor that specializes in residential concrete cast-in-place walls that I was able to find so far, and maybe there are more, but I'll have to do the cost comparisons. 

Fortunately, the county we're moving to will allow us to pull our own permits for everything and act as GC (with the exception of the well, which I don't want to mess with).  Between the plumbing and electrical J has done, and the flooring/painting and general carpentry I've done, we've done enough that we should be able to manage most things after the concrete shell is up.  I'll probably sub out a portion of electrical and plumbing just to have the extra eyes if nothing else. 

It's a single-story 34x93 simple rectangle (exterior dimensions, 11" wall thickness), 36 of the length is the garage/shop on one side.  The layout is essentially four big blocks - the kid space (with bathroom); kitchen/utility/mechanical; master apartment (w/saferoom and bath, den area/office nook); then the garage/workshop.  The only rooms that are framed apart from the full walls that cut the rectangle straight across between these areas are the bathrooms and the vault (servers, valuables, saferoom). 

Ultimately, some of our preferences are actually less expensive - I'm thrilled at the idea of not having exterior siding if we go with the formed sandwich walls.  Concrete exteriors on homes are gorgeous when they're accented well, and with good overhangs and pan sills that makes managing weather barriers easier.  Nothing is perfect (or stays that way even if it starts that way), but I shouldn't end up with mess like siding hanging off my house (that house was 4 months old).  Then, I can maybe have the solid wall up from the footing, and float the slab - then there's no uninsulated concrete above grade to the air, and nothing for termites to bore through from any landscaping. 

And if I end up going with the ICF Hardwalls, the EPS takes stucco well, and I'll have some easy connection points on interior walls.

Looks like I have a couple of really good options whichever way, I'll just see how the quotes come out.

As of right now, I have about 5% of wiggle room in each of the pieces I estimated in material costs, a fair bit for extra paid labor in the event that we get overwhelmed, and a $15k wth budget.  If things go beyond that, then we'll delay the solar panels until a year or so out, so I've basically designated almost $40k that is flexible for the unforseens.  Hopefully we'll get lucky (yeah right...)

Posted By mariaD on 15 Apr 2016 09:00 PM
Don't worry - I'm not taking it as discouragement, just caution for things to look out for.  Now I know that I need to possibly talk to commercial contractors or subs - maybe I'll get lucky and find someone who's between jobs and won't charge me terribly high for a small job.

Just an FYI, commercial construction is higher in any given market, then residential, and for a reason. In my company, we do 85% of our work in commercial, and only a few guys do ICF, because I like doing it. If it was profit driven exclusively, we would not be in the home building business.

I would not look for someone who will work "cheap", but rather look for quality and expect to pay for quality. Anything else will very likely lead you to disappointment. Don't get wrapped up in the details about how others do the work, i.e., my electrician, who has years of ICF experience, uses tap-cons to attach his boxes to the wall, and he is a commercial guy first. I use duplex screws to anchor bracing to the floors if we are inside the perimeter, rather then tap-cons, due to price. I can pull the duplex screws and re-use them over and over.

Thank you Joasis:) - With no experience to inform, I was guessing commercial quotes might likely come in 20-30% higher depending upon the type of work and the time of year.  I'd much rather something be done correctly than cheaply, that "cheap" is really just a delay in paying for it again if I'm lucky, or a disaster somewhere if I'm not.  We'll make changes in design, size, or complexity, and delay some pieces (like solar), but the lowest bidder approach just doesn't excite us at all.  We've run into several issues with both plumbing and electric in our current house, among a host of other issues, so we're completely done with dealing with substandard work.  I'd rather go ahead and pay a few thousand more than keep paying for years. 

We're buying fixtures at the Restore whenever possible, forgoing anything purely decorative that can be reasonably delayed, stuff like that.  Those things add up after a while.  I can get a fancy sink later if I want to, but I definitely can't afford to hire a good electrician to rewire the house later.  Certainly not with concrete. 

You have gotten a lot of advice here. I am a Fox dealer, I have 2 Buildblock dealers, 1 Nudura dealer and 1 Quad Lock dealer in my area. I tell all my potential customers to deal with who they are most comfortable with. I know I can't sell every job. This is a process, a journey if you will. I typically make sight visits throughout the job. I want to make certain that everyone working on the project, homeowner or contractor, has all the info they need. Pick one of the ICF national brands and a guy that knows what customer service is and be happy. Selling or talking about ICF's on the internet is not the same as being there through out. Good Luck

I've never seen a duplex screw rated for use in concrete like a tap con. They're great for formwork you want to be able to take apart but being a hardened screw - like a sheetrock screw - they aren't even recommended for staging or scaffolding purposes in wood because they can snap easily. Everyone chooses which corners they want to cut but unless there are some new fangled duplex screws that I'm not aware of, that doesn't sound like a practice to be advocating to DIYers. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

With adequately sized pvc conduit and long sweep elbows, plumbing and electric problems would be minimal. Try to make runs as short as possible and make conduit as large as practical in case things are added later. Pex is your friend. Go buy a piece and put a shark bite connector on it. No worries, the fittings are removable and reusable. It's easy. Wires are pulled with a fish tape. Strip the first few inches of insulation from the wire you need to pull and cut off all but one of the exposed wires. Hook that wire through the loop in the end of the fish tape and fold it back and tape the splice with black tape to help it slide smoothly through the conduit. With one person feeding and one pulling it goes easier. Unroll the wire so it comes off the roll flat or make a holder with an axle through the middle. If you just uncoil it from the box, it will want to kink or twist when pulled through the conduit or even when pulled through drilled studs.

Posted By emmetbrick on 18 Apr 2016 10:48 AM
You have gotten a lot of advice here. I am a Fox dealer, I have 2 Buildblock dealers, 1 Nudura dealer and 1 Quad Lock dealer in my area. I tell all my potential customers to deal with who they are most comfortable with. I know I can't sell every job. This is a process, a journey if you will. I typically make sight visits throughout the job. I want to make certain that everyone working on the project, homeowner or contractor, has all the info they need. Pick one of the ICF national brands and a guy that knows what customer service is and be happy. Selling or talking about ICF's on the internet is not the same as being there through out. Good Luck

See, this is what I was talking about. It's as if we are talking nuclear secrets here. They say that they'll tell you what you need to know after you sign on the dotted line. Don't ask any questions - esp. about the price. Seems like more transparency would be better but that's a view the industry doesn't seem to share. Shhhhh, Hush Hush. The only sound they want to hear is Cha-Ching!

Posted By mojoe on 18 Apr 2016 11:41 AM


See, this is what I was talking about. It's as if we are talking nuclear secrets here. They say that they'll tell you what you need to know after you sign on the dotted line. Don't ask any questions - esp. about the price. Seems like more transparency would be better but that's a view the industry doesn't seem to share. Shhhhh, Hush Hush. The only sound they want to hear is Cha-Ching!

I don't understand what you are griping about?

This is a forum and people have different views and even this website's existence is to make money. Hence the advertisement it sells.

Builders and distributors are in the business to make money. That's the reality of the world.

Nothing secret or nefarious here.

The reality is that pros screw up right along, too. The builder who finished one on my road in august was still coming back this month for more finger pointing. (Bad heat pump! No, poor install!)
It is a complex process, and the more you know, the better the house will be. Even the best builder, facing an expensive enough mistake, will be tempted mightily to choose silence over honor.
The unspoken blessing of diy is that everyone (you and yourself) almost always agrees, and you can skip straight to the fix without the argument.

I typically go to the site to review the drawings with the customer. Looking for any issues prior to sticking a shovel in the ground. I don't charge for this. I also let customers who buy a competitors block to use my bracing and I only charge them mileage and a cleaning fee. In this industry, I feel we have to all work together to get a larger piece of the construction pie. One way to get there is to perform well, make sure all the customers are satisfied. When something happens at a job, if we aren't stewards of the industry the product can get the blame. It doesn't matter what happened a bad job reflects on us all.

posted by Lbear on 18 Apr 2016 12:09 PM


I don't understand what you are griping about?

This is a forum and people have different views and even this website's existence is to make money. Hence the advertisement it sells.

Builders and distributors are in the business to make money. That's the reality of the world.

Nothing secret or nefarious here.

…………………………………………..


nothing to see here folks ……… just move along - move along. - and don't ask any questions…We'll tell you what you need to know after you sign on the dotted line. What about my quote? If you have to ask how much, you can't afford it. I love how the people who have never done an honest day's work in their life are the ones pretending to be the expert on "the reality of the world" - cracks me up every time.

Emmet - yes, selling it online isn't the same as being there - that's why I'm still a bit worried about picking ICF.  If I'm having trouble getting callbacks from sales, that's frightening.  I would love to be able to hire a GC, but we're trying to squeeze through this with a simple, solid design and hope we don't have to dip too much into reserves for errors and problems.  It's a gamble, just like most things.

Is it possible, maybe, that a general contractor might consider doing consultant work for an owner-builder?  (with a sign-off of some sort I suppose that they aren't attached or liable or anything like that)  I imagine that once we get started, I'll have a bunch of these moments.  I would think that could cause problems, but I don't know.  It would be nice if it were possible here and there.

I would think that anyone choosing a builder would look on sites like this to see if anyone in their area is talking, and if they're seeing anyone who seems compatible for what they're looking for.  If I were a builder I'd be on here, but I'm also really wishing I'd gone to school for construction management.  Economics was interesting, but not this interesting.  I imagine anything gets repetitive when it's work, but this is BUILDING stuff.  BIG stuff.  Office work doesn't sound nearly as interesting.  But then again, on cold rainy yucky days, I imagine office jobs don't sound too awful.  Tradeoffs, right?





 

You can find plan designers (drafters, architects) who are will provide a service of getting owner-builders through the planning and permitting stage. They also can be a good reference for the big subs (IFC's being one, windows/doors being another). Finding a truss supplier, roofing, HVAC, plumbing, electrical is just time and effort as those fields are more typically available in all areas.

I've seen some small GC's offer project management services. They are your employee to be directed by you. For instance a supervisory role when you cannot be onsite to ensure the trades perform what you expect. Basically the fun stuff while you are responsible for all organization of the build.

You can find plan designers (drafters, architects) who are will provide a service of getting owner-builders through the planning and permitting stage. They also can be a good reference for the big subs (IFC's being one, windows/doors being another). Finding a truss supplier, roofing, HVAC, plumbing, electrical is just time and effort as those fields are more typically available in all areas.

I've seen some small GC's offer project management services. They are your employee to be directed by you. For instance a supervisory role when you cannot be onsite to ensure the trades perform what you expect. Basically the fun stuff while you are responsible for all the organization of the build. If you're like me you want to understand every detail. Hiring someone to take care of them is more stressful than doing it yourself.