So after 19 replies and 278 views to this thread, nobody is willing to address the original poster's questions?

I was thinking the same thing. I appreciate the openess of the info. That makes me comfortable enough to use them.

Heres my question...I will use nail based panels w/ T & G cieling and also T & G front and back walls. On the gable ends
I want to use sheetrock on both gables to brighten up the interior. For that reason I am ordering my finish guy suggested
even though we are putting up all interior sheating,wiring, and then covering with the skins...that the gables with sheetrock
should have OSB both sides to add stability to the sheetrock for hanging things.
The question is what lumber should I expect for panel installation ? The windows and doors will be scooped with no 2X's....
Im aware of that and we will do that on site. But how about the top of the walls where they meet the roof panels,etc...should
there be lumber there or at any other junctions?
Mark

The Panel Guy,

Is your pricing the same for 8' x --- panels?  I really prefer to use the largest panel I can and eliminate seams and headers where possible.  The less lumber the better.  By the way for the others reading this thread, we fabricate on site using electric chain saws (Stihl) and custom made saw bases.  The Prazzi saw attachtments didn't hold up.  And like the original post asked,  just how much do steel panels cost?

T Hackbart

Terry,

On your 8'x panels, are the OSB skins 8x? or ?x8 -- that is, what is the orientation on the strands?
I'm assuming that the OSB would have different bending paramaters based on whether the bends were along or across the strands' orientation, but does it matter? 

Very respectfully,
Larry

ReadyToRetire,

Our primary tool is a Marfell Saws for 4 1/2 & 6 1/2 panels. A $ 4,000.00 saw that makes a one pass cut as it can cut up to a 7 1/2 inch depth. the other tool we use is a Stihl electric chain saw with a Big Foot table for 8, 10 & 12 inch panels. Our fabrication is as clean as the automated cutters and from what I've observed just as fast. Where the automated cutters have it over us, is their layouts are computer generated and we layout by hand. We seldom have a quality control issue where we need to make for any compensation on the project site.

The key to fabrication is the accuracy of the shop drawings. Even the manufacturers try to hand off their shop drawings to a $ 15.00 an hour CAD operator who has little building experience. Usually when something is wrong with the framign package it's not because it was cut on large machinery verses manually, it inveritably comes back to the inaccuracy of the shop drawings.

GeorgiaTom,

Most cutoffs can be worked back into that same job as a small sill or header. There are very few cut offs that we can't work into another panel part. Sometimes it's not the same project, but we don't throw anything away if we don't have to. Panel chunks that are 6 inches and less are usually throw-a-ways.

TPG

Thanks Jelly,

As much as I've enjoyed the ongoing exchange, I was really hoping that those in the steel and concrete SIPs would weigh in so we could compare all the different types of SIPs available. The SIP industry can be weird with thinking that pricing needs to be some great secret. Like they'd be giving their proprietary information away. I provide what I call a "Full-Disclosure" bid to all of our potential customers. Our panel and accessory pricing is a line item cost, like lumbers yards show and each of our value added services are line item priced also. I want those people to be able to take my pricing and compare it line item to line item with any other manufacturer or distributor. That way they know what a good deal I'm giving them on their framing packages.

If this industry is to grow, SIPs need to be treated like any other framing product, which is all they actually are.

Come on Steel & Concrete SIP people - Step up to the bar !

Terry Hackbart,

Our pricing for 8 x panels is the same as it is for 4 x.

The Stihl chain saw is a great tool. We use it for 8, 10 and 12 inch panels. I even found a table made by Big Foot that doesn't cost near what custom tables run and it's very accurate. The Prazi was the tool used early on and it didn't take more than a couple of passes before you knew you bought a lemon. Marfell makes a great saw that makes one pass cuts on 4 1/2 & 6 1/2 inch panels and is faster than the electric Stihl and a good deal more accurate. Sounds like you're deep enough in the game that a Marfell would be a good investment for you.

I'll say it again, Come on Steel and Concrete SIP companies, Let's see what you got. Afraid to come out in the water ?

The Panel Guy,

Thanks for the tips on the Marfell saw and Big Foot guide.  We use a Makita beamsaw that we modified slightly to cut 4 1/2 and 6 1/2 inch panels.  It cuts great but always on the look for good ideas.  I have been at this since 1994 and quickly decided that on site fabrication would work best for us.  We used Premier panels for years, but the transportation costs became too much, and I never did think too much of their fabrication.  I have used Enercept, but the fact that it comes with lumber was more of a detriment than an advantage.  They only do 4 x  panels and I hate the extra weight from the lumber.  We are now using an R-Control panel from ACH foam out of Denver.  We only buy stock panels, do our own cad drawings and fabrication. Their pricing falls in line with Premier.  I like sips, and no matter who makes them I recommend them over stick framing.  I would love to find out more about the steel sips.  I can think of places they could be great.

 

Thanks again Panel Guy.

Terry Hackbart

The Panel Guy,

Sorry to butt in here again, but you are dead on when you say that for Sips to succeed they need to be treated like any other framing product.  I think that concept make some of the sip people uncomfortable.  Some of them want to make this look like magic, and all it is is framing.

Terry Hackbart

Larry,

It doesn't matter with the sips as long as it meets the engineering specifications of the manufacturer.  Choose any manufacturer such as Premier or R-Control.  Go to their web sites and down load the load charts and specificaitons.  It is amazing what sips are rated to do.  And from hands on experience, they exceed my expections.  I have been building since the late 1960's.  I have stick framed more houses than I can remember, and I have never seen a stick framed house that meets the strength and quality of sips, not to mention the energy savings.  If I am building a house with 8 foot tall walls, I will try to use the biggest  8 x  panel I can work into the plan. 2 years ago we did a simple walk out ranch with a 48 foot long wall.  We built it with two panels.  One seam in the entire wall, no lumber headers, and a foam and osb spline.  A very efficient wall.  The same house had 18' tall gable walls over the walkout stair well. We used 8 x 18 panels cut to fit the step in the foundation and raked to fit the slope of the roof.  I don't how that could have been pre fabricated given the variance in the foundation.  On site fabrication allows us to do the entire house with sips.  I have seen web sites of other sip builders and noticed that bays and stepped walls were stick framed.  Why!!  And then they put a truss roof over it.  Do as much sips as you can.


Good luck with your project,  I know you will love the sips

Terry Hackbart

TP Guy;

Steel shadowline, with 26 gage galvalume white painted skins, eps
"Perform-Guard"foam core:

4" walls - R= 17 .......................... $ 18.48  per lineal foot
6" roof -  R = 25.5 ......................  $ 19.68  per lineal foot

We round up to the next nearest 6" increment, so if you want a 20' - 3" panel it is priced at the 20' - 6" price increment with NO UPCHARGE for cutting
Friction fit interlock requires no splines, no mastic, no fasteners, no scoop outs on cuts.

Things to factor in analysis:

cost of soffit, cost of crane, cost of vapor barrier (items needed on OSB, but not steel)

Although any SIP construction will save 50 – 60% in energy costs, are 3 times stronger than frame, and are more environmentally friendly. Steel is a better choice for the following reasons

 

Advantages of Steel SIPs vs.OSB

v  Steel will not warp, swell, twist, rot

v  Rain during construction do not affect materials in any way

v  No cranes needed for installation a steel SIPs are lighter than OSB

v  The underside of the roof panel automatically forms an attractive finished soffit overhang or exterior porch ceiling.

v  Joints are a T&G friction fit they do not require splines, mastic or fasteners greatly speeding installation time

v  Steel is more stable during manufacturing and panels are held to 1/16” tolerance

v  OSB is limited to 24ft. in length …Steel SIPs are available up to 53ft. in length, eliminating butt joints

v  Steel panels are manufactured on a continuous line making them available in square pre-cut lengths in  ¼ ” increments, but only charged to the nearest  ½ ft., OSB often rounds up to the nearest 2 ft. increment – making you pay for waste that gets thrown away

v  Higher ” R – Value” denser foam provides a 4.25 R- value per inch of foam

v  No Termites … Impervious to termites and carpenter ants , foam core is borate treated

v  No foam grooving is required for window and door openings, after cutouts are made, openings are simply “picture framed” with 18.ga. steel channels

v  The steel skin is the “vapor barrier” on walls no additional covering is required before siding is applied

v  Eave overhangs can be 4 feet with no additional support

v  Sound Control – utilizing a 1-1/2” steel furring strip creates a dead air space for improved STC ratings.

v  Wiring – utilizing that same air space, wiring is much easier than fishing wire thru OSB and any future retrofit wiring is easier.

v  Will not support mold growth – painted galvalume steel skins are UDSA approved

v  Indoor air quality is better due to the tighter and cleaner construction material of the interior

v  Any steel building is safer from lightning strikes

v  “Monocoque construction” All connections and attachments are with screws having greater pullout strength than nailing

v  For economy or insulated utility buildings, steel SIPs have been left exposed as the finished siding and roofing.

v  Zurich Ins. In partnership with the Steel Framing Alliance offer reduced builders risk insurance premiums

v  In Florida and other hurricane prone regions Steel SIPs are 30% less to insure than block/truss and  53% less to insure than wood frame construction

 

www.southernsips.com

Chris,
Your prices are quoted per lineal foot. Are those panels 4' wide?

Ours are 45-1/2" wide,

I have seen other mfg.s that are 24"  / 1 meter / 36" / 48"

Chris,

Thank you for the information.  I am very interested in steel sips and the possible uses. Crazy busy here right now and will visit your web site this weekend.

Thank you again

Terry Hackbart

I have one other question, are they including the splines, screws, adhesive or foam or both? shop drawings? can you tell me everything it included?

I am building with ProTech fiber cement panels made by TClear. My cost per square foot of wall for their 4 inch (R-20) product is $5.57 per square foot. That includes the all the cutting for windows, doors and outlets; c channel, fasteners, etc. Given that I won't need to apply Tyvek outside or drywall on the interior I believe it to be very competitive with OSB. Fiber cement was a better choice for the coastal environment we're building in. I understand that they will soon be selling a 6 inch R-30 wall panel. I hope this helps answer the question.

Scott;

what widths and lengths do the come in ?

what kind of splines are there?

After looking at those I was always concerned that if the fiber cement skin would snap a corner off , how would you fix it?

what did you use for your roof system.

Tom-

we break ground in September so I'm doing this from memory:

panels are 3 feet wide and come in 8, 9, or 10 foot increments. the splines are steel and there are buried steel studs. We're using OSB SIPS for the roof. I don't know about the repair but I'd guess that some sort of cement patch could be used. I do know that the factory is sending an extra panel or two along just in case. I hope this helps.

Scott

Scott;

sounds like cement patch would work, as panel seems to be relying on integral steel studding for structural support.

Keep us posted, on your progress

Scott- does ProTech / TClear have a site with load tables and pricing?