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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Mar 2009 10:40 PM |
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richntiff,
It is very interesting to read that TJI joists have been used on end as a stud. I wonder if the IRC 2003 or 2006 code covers this use? Anybody know?
I remember years ago when the TJI was first shown I suggested to the company that they should also be used for rafters. By the next year they were. Now I would like to see them used as studs for superinsulated homes. More options - better homes. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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coddave
New Member
Posts:15
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| 17 Mar 2009 11:50 PM |
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Nascorwalls.com uses an I-joist wall panel system. From what I hear it is fairly difficult to modify on site if required. It should also be sheathed to reduce racking problems, no matter what the vendor tells you. It is very light weight, easy to work with for electricians, and some of the framers we work with love it for certain applications. |
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coddave
New Member
Posts:15
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| 17 Mar 2009 11:57 PM |
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Kyle,
From what you're describing I am surprised your quote is over $20,000 ready to install, materials all in.
Dave |
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fchord
New Member
Posts:4
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| 18 Mar 2009 07:14 AM |
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There have been many buildings built with I-joist wall studs. Some small - and ahead of the curve - builders in our area were using 9 1/2" studs 15 years ago.
Our company panelized large commercial buildings using I-joist studs around the same time. One in particular had ~24' high walls with 11 7/8" I-joist studs. This allowed for R-40 in the walls and I think they had R-60 in the ceiling of a 8,000 sq. ft. cold building for a tree nursery.
There aren't any significant road blocks to using I-joists for walls, just a little more thought about some of the door and window framing. Having said that, they are quite a bit more expensive than conventional lumber, so it's a small niche.
Geordie |
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| Geordie Secord<br>Kent Trusses - 800-461-9616 |
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richntiff
Basic Member
Posts:108
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| 18 Mar 2009 09:48 AM |
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Alton, I believe the architect states that she was required to specify interior and exterior structural sheathing. She put OSB on the interior to act as structural sheathing and air barrier, and a fiberboard on the exterior. I have a hard time justifying the cost of the I-joist wall - $1.29-$1.59 per LF of stud? Can build a double studwall for alot less than that.
There are some other articles here - one mentions that the second Urbana Passivhaus built had a blower door test of 0.25 ACH at 50 PA! I'm on a search to find out their specific air barrier details, and to find the best way to duplicate it plus add a vapor retarder for my climate zone 7 build.
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/Articles_files/EDU%20May2007%20Postable.PDF |
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Hughianowen
New Member
Posts:19
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| 18 Mar 2009 03:45 PM |
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I've been watching the discussions here regarding SIPS for a while and have found the toing-and-froing interesting.
Although I've never used SIPS, I've got a largish custom home project and have been looking at various SIP alternatives. From my research it appears that all of the various SIP variations will work fairly well if properly manufactured and installed. The trouble is figuring out which manufacturers are trustworthy and dealing with the trades, who seem never to want to learn anything new.
I've got a few specific questions:
1. I've noticed the many posts by a steel SIPS manufacturer. While I think I would prefer MGO board for walls, if the steel SIPS could be used for the roof and have the appearance of a traditional standing seam metal roof, it might be a very interesting product to investigate. Because I'll be building pier and beam to get the house off of grade level, I'm wondering if the steel product would make any sense for the first floor. I would tend to think not, but that is just a surmise that is not based on any real product knowledge about the steel SIPS.
2. Does anyone know how well MGO board would bond to a polyurethane core (HFC 245fa, rather than HFC 134a or HCFC 22)? I understand that the adhesive used for EPS panels has a polyurethane base.
3. I also wonder how the web trusses that I'll need for the second floor and attic/third floor can be integrated into the structure without loosing a great deal of the benefit of using SIPS.
Thanks! |
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Jetgraphics
New Member
Posts:19
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| 18 Mar 2009 07:46 PM |
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1. Check out the performance degradation of insulation as temperature drops. Fiberglass drops in performance as temperature drops. In contrast, expanded polystyrene (EPS) improves in performance as temperature drops. Thus a SIP wall w/ EPS will out perform "equivalent" R factor (measured at 70 F) fiberglass insulated stud wall during cold winters.
2. If you superinsulate, you probably don't need operable windows, especially if you've installed a controlled ventilation system. You (or your builder) could probably fabricate the fixed windows, and save $$$. If code requires windows as fire exits, install an exterior door (insulated) or hatch instead .
3. Instead of high tech triple pane windows, use plain dual pane, and make superinsulated shutters. Instead of expensive 'window decorations' for privacy or to control light, use the shutter. Split the shutter 1/3 & 2/3. Thus you can leave the upper third open, for lighting, while cutting 66% of the heat transfer in the window. During the night or temperature extremes, close all the shutters.
4. Wood may be popular as a material for housing, but it is susceptible to fire, wind, water, insects, vermin, mold, sun, and is not the most frugal, durable, long lasting structural system. You rarely find 1000 year old wooden castles or huts. But you can easily find rammed earth, stone, brick and concrete structures that bear up well over time. (Roman concrete has been found to last over 2000 years). |
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ErgoDesk
Basic Member
Posts:149
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| 18 Mar 2009 07:59 PM |
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Jetgraphics, please tell us more. |
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| Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air<br>http://StyroHomeNews.blogspot.com |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 18 Mar 2009 08:06 PM |
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Jetgraphics;
Most codes in US require emergency egress via doors or windows, I don't think a hatch qualifys |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 18 Mar 2009 08:12 PM |
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Hughianowen;
1. there are a few standing seam steel SIPs on the market, but their span qualities are poor and if you have valleys, I am not so sure they've got the bugs worked out
2. we prefer to balloon frame 2 & 3 story to ensure a contiguous thermal envelope, then hang the steel receiver track for clear span steel joists off the inside skin
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Jetgraphics
New Member
Posts:19
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| 20 Mar 2009 11:42 PM |
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If a double hung window's opening is smaller than a hatch, I would think that the purpose would be fulfilled.
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Jetgraphics
New Member
Posts:19
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| 20 Mar 2009 11:43 PM |
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More?
5. Superinsulation reduces or eliminates the need for HVAC in many climates. The Canadian "Conservation House" built in 1970s, had R48 walls, and R60 ceiling. The newest test house will have R80 ceiling insulation.
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/energy-efficient_houses.html
http://www.src.sk.ca/html/research_technology/manufacturing/build_perform/Factor_9/FAQs/
6. Dry composter for human wastes (aerobic digester). Save on water consumption, and reduce pollution. Do not confuse with a pit privy (anerobic digester).
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html
7. Harvest rainwater, store in a cistern. Rainwater is naturally distilled, and free of heavy metal contaminants. Divert the first 5 minutes of rain, as the roof is washed clean.
8. Instead of a decorative lawn, construct your food production landscape. Food will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no food.
9. If you have enough room, construct a pond for aquaculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaculture
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 21 Mar 2009 06:25 AM |
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Posted By Jetgraphics on 03/20/2009 11:42 PM
If a double hung window's opening is smaller than a hatch, I would think that the purpose would be fulfilled.
Jetgraphics; what we think or what we feel doesn't necessarily matter, the window "clear" egress in most place is 20" wide x 24" high , not only for people to get out , but also for fireman to get in . Unless a hatch was able to be opened from the outside easily with and ax, provide light and ventilation, it probably would not be allowed by code in a bedroom. But if it had all those attributes, it would no longer be just a hatch, it sounds more like a window |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 21 Mar 2009 06:28 AM |
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Posted By Jetgraphics on 03/20/2009 11:43 PM
More?
5. Superinsulation reduces or eliminates the need for HVAC in many climates. The Canadian "Conservation House" built in 1970s, had R48 walls, and R60 ceiling. The newest test house will have R80 ceiling insulation.
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/energy-efficient_houses.html
http://www.src.sk.ca/html/research_technology/manufacturing/build_perform/Factor_9/FAQs/
Jetgraphics; Its hard to belive that air conditioning in Florida is not a code requirement, but heat is |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 21 Mar 2009 10:59 AM |
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"...the window "clear" egress in most place is 20" wide x 24" high..."
I only know this because I'm pricing windows at the moment, but it's actually a minimum of 20 inches wide and a minimum of 24 inches tall. That square footage doesn't equal the required 5.7 square feet of opening.
In other words if it's 2 feet tall then it has to be 2.85 feet wide. (Chris, this isn't directed at you because I know that you're aware of all this - just trying to point it out for someone like me who up until a week ago wouldn't have known this). |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 21 Mar 2009 12:52 PM |
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Jelly;
you are correct |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Jetgraphics
New Member
Posts:19
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| 21 Mar 2009 01:37 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/21/2009 6:25 AM Posted By Jetgraphics on 03/20/2009 11:42 PM
If a double hung window's opening is smaller than a hatch, I would think that the purpose would be fulfilled.
[/quote]Jetgraphics;
what we think or what we feel doesn't necessarily matter, the window "clear" egress in most place is 20" wide x 24" high , not only for people to get out , but also for fireman to get in . Unless a hatch was able to be opened from the outside easily with and ax, provide light and ventilation, it probably would not be allowed by code in a bedroom. But if it had all those attributes, it would no longer be just a hatch, it sounds more like a window
[/quote]If the reason to install an operable window is to provide an exit, I'd opt for a fixed window and an escape hatch (made of an insulated material, hopefully). IMHO, an operable window compromises its functionality.
As ventilation, it's in the wrong place. Imagine a bathtub with the drain half way up the side.
As emergency egress, it's a poor choice - - especially if broken glass shards are present. And if you build with concrete / stone / brick, why would you need to provide a fireman (or burglar) easy access?
As a source of natural illumination, apparently most folks would rather cover them up with curtains, shades, blinds, and so forth.
And as a frame for a 'view', most people cover them up, for privacy.
So why are we buying expensive operable windows, that leak heat and air, aren't optimal for their task, and are a compromise?
No logical reason.
In short, use glazing for natural light and/or view and nothing else. Install a separate ventilation system (top and bottom of wall, for example). Install an emergency exit hatch / door, if needed.
Of course, the #1 reason why architects don't promote superinsulation, is that the majority of the heat transfer shifts to the glazing. And even the most high tech gas filled models barely reach R4.
So they shrug their shoulders .... Bah - humbug.
Bureaucracy - a beast with a hundred legs and no brain.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 21 Mar 2009 01:47 PM |
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Jetgraphics;
If you are building where a code is enforced the health and safety will always override an energy effciency issue.
You could install insulated shutters and be in compliance with the egress code |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Jetgraphics
New Member
Posts:19
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| 21 Mar 2009 01:57 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/21/2009 1:47 PM
Jetgraphics;
If you are building where a code is enforced the health and safety will always override an energy effciency issue.
You could install insulated shutters and be in compliance with the egress code If I understand your objection, surrender to brainless bureaucracy, entrenched in stone like status quo, is preferable to an engineered solution that optimizes functionality. If that's what you want... who am I to oppose it? Myself? I'd build a fire resistant house, that has no need to offer burglars an easy access. If I want an emergency exit, I will use a superinsulated hatch, not an operable window, sited for egress and not functionality. If I want natural ventilation, I will put vents in the lowest and highest points in the room - not in the middle of the wall. If I want natural illumination while preserving privacy, I will place the glazing above 4'8".
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 21 Mar 2009 02:06 PM |
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Jetgraphics;
I live in a fire resistant house, but thats not to say that a candle couldn't fall over start the carpet, drapes, furniture, wood cabinets on fire.
Besides egress, you are required to have a certain % of natural light and natural ventilation.
You can make the argument that "its your house" ,but since we are not imortal, someone else will occupy that house eventually. If it is not built to any code they would be unknowingly at risk.
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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