So you're saying his wall bow in his kitchen is to be expected?

UHHHMMMM. Some clarification would be great....

thermocoreps should know what I'm talking about; the wall pics from 2007 posted by Kevin.
the pictures of the exterior sip wall in question that bowed out 1/2" and tore through the back of his cabinets and pulled away from his 1/2 wall. They are still archived on this site. I reread the original thread from '07 and its interesting how the blame has evolved.

It originally was improper panel handling, improper floor system and a few other notes to clear them, now the panel movement is apparentlly seasonal which if you see Kevins pic of the gap is completely unacceptable and should scare anyone out of using OSB sips.

According to thermocore the sound issues were from a sump pump pipe, and neither side made any mention in '07 or '08 of the highway out the back door which I find odd. I was feeling for thermocore until the last post naming the bow as acceptable.

The bow in the kitchen is a result of a panel alteration during install. There are also other factors relating to the framing of the house. Keep in mind the center steel beam supporting the floor system and the floor joist had to be reset after the house was built. We have offered a fix for the kitchen wall. OSB skin panels have been in service for decades and have a proven track record.

JStelmack,

John -- sorry to post my question so late: In your list of things that he should inspect, why did you ask if the problem panel was on the South side?

Very respectfully,
Larry

Thermocore,
Can you post the alteration that caused the bow and what your fix is?
Thanks.

Sorry this post turned out to be so long winded.

Larry - GREAT QUESTION! Some questions may be inconvenient for anyone promoting the SIP industry. But all relevant questions should be asked. The entire environment should be investigated to identify or eliminate an external cause. Southern walls exposed to direct sunlight endure greater heat during the day. Therefore, the 24 hour temp swings are greater on that wall. Does it really mean anything? I don't think so for several reasons:

1. The bulging is reported as occurring one cycle per year (seasonally) not one cycle per day (daily).
2. If additional direct heat from the sun is the culprit, the bulging is likely to occur more in the summer, not in the winter as reported. If this were the case, the panel would be acting like a bi-metal spring. Remember the coiled spring inside the old style thermostats? With mercury inside a glass tube?
3. In my mind, the answer to the question is more to eliminate this as a cause and to answer that question for the audience before they ask it.

Another environmental cause that should be investigated is the soils under that area. Are the soils beneath that section of wall expanding and contracting due to seasonal fluctuations in moisture content? Yet the other sections of wall do not suffer the same fate? All of these things should be investigated to find the exact cause. Once the exact cause is found, the repair plan can be designed and applied with greater confidence. It will also put to bed the question of "who" is responsible. I see the information provided thus far as inadequate and biased. The audience deserves the facts.

Priorities for these questions are:
1. Encourage a solution for the homeowner that he (and the audience) can be confident in.
2. Educate the audience with facts instead of persuading them with biased negativity or promotional spin.
3. Let the facts promote the SIP industry for what it is; a reliable, and much needed alternative construction method.

Being a SIP's builder may lead some to claim I am biased in this issue. To the contrary, I seek facts. "If" in fact there is a potential problem, I MUST learn about it to reduce risk for my clients, my business and my family. I live in a SIP home and build exclusively with SIP's. I put everything on the line to become a SIP's exclusive builder. And I mean everything. I truly believe in the need for energy efficient SIP homes. From the beginning it was clear that acceptance and transition to SIP construction would be a long uphill road. In general, people live in a comfort zone. They are comfortable with sticks, fiberglass insulation and shingles. The trades tend to push back when presented with change. I truly believe there is no better way to build for the masses and am sticking with it. Fortunately for me, my wife (who is much smarter then me) is on board.

The questions and commentary is offered so the audience understands my motivation to find a solution. This forum has been presented with a biased subjective story. So far, as best I can see, proper investigation is being avoided. This leads me to believe less than honorable motives are at play in this saga. The goal should be to learn of a sound resolution, based on fact, that answers questions raised by the homeowner. Not because I feel for this particular homeowner, but because I feel for anyone who walks away from SIP's persuaded only by negatively biased subjectivity. Prospective SIP homeowners are the winners when presented with fact.

It is surprising to me that so few industry insiders are not stepping up to encourage presentation of the facts in this situation. Guys and Gals, what gives with the silence? Is there something you know that I don't? To those of you with bigger brains then most of us: We need your help. Before you is a fantastic opportunity to display your expert sleuthing skills. Present this forum with the appropriate questions to guide the resolution. Now is your time to shine!

Please help with this educational endeavor.

John

http://thermocore.info


Wall in the kitchen is really bowing out this year, even after supports installed.

Just letting you know some of your links at that page are set to a .org address instead of the .info. Specifically the forum ones.

I also have no dog in this fight I am looking at SIPS for an upcoming project so I thought I would go an read the history of this including the previous threads. A lot of allegations have been made, substantiation has been sought, none has been forthcoming. Information has been deleted where it did not support the case. Everything suggests that this was an installer issue. You can have the best product in the world, but it can not overcome a crap install. Just a confirmation of an old adage. The only negative I see is that if I read their site right it only comes in one thickness.

Ok.


Here are some question for all to contemplate, you all use your noodles, and give me your input.

#1.

If the bottom plate is too narrow that it does not touch the inside skins of the panels, and too short to touch the lower portion of the inside of the panels, would this cause the panels to buckle? These lower plates that were provided by Thermocore, with the panels are too small to fasten to the inside of the panels. Where and how could the loads transferto the subfloor evenly, if at all?

#2.   What is causing these Thermocore Panels to expand the lenght of the house? The back Panels(Kitchen etc...  ) are pushing lengthwise into the standard frames garage wall. And pushing the inside walls down, Before it was just the ripping from the interior walls and now it is dragging them as they expand, move. You can hear them throughout the day.

#3. Why do these panels magnify sound, or transmit so much sound through the panels? Is this common for P/U ?

Lets get this straight, Yes it is true that the person who put these panels up , have never put up Thermocore Panels. but lets face it....pretty darn easy to blame someone else.....

Yes a couple of panels were dropped, and one of the same panels got modified for an outlet. But lets remember, this house has more than four panels, all of them are bowing ,bulging etc....

Remember , We decided to use these panels for the fact that Thermocore states on the Thermocore Web site that these panels are quieter than standard frame home.......These panels are stronger...will not warp ....bow....etc...

I do not understand how this company can expect these Panels to transfer the loads to the subfloor by the small floor plates!! they have  1/ 4" gap both sides!!!and the panels do not rest on them. http://thermocore.info/lowerpanelattachment.html

A new house....needs  thousands to repair!!!! We are still on a Construction loan, paying interest only!!! Thanks Thermocore.

Do the right thing....call your insurance company!!
 
 Check out this Link !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FydBrWLZg4A


http://thermocore.info/

jstelmack 
What facts do you need, that these Panels are bowing? Bulging? Look at the movies, look at the pics?

 The facts are: You can hear people talk outside while you are inside, as clear as day!
 
 You can hear people talk inside when you are outside, clear as day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13DkH1wmr54

You must have something to gain by bashing my family! Great job, you really do represent the SIPS Industry as we have found them to be....Heartless crooks!


Intellect?  I do not understand this bashing, or the purpose? You must be buddies with someone at Thermocore!


Come on...... Thermocore has sent two different  Installers here. Grant it, they have never seen a finished Thermocore home, and they stated this!  but they were amazed at the noise, and the damaged interior walls! They were blown away!!! They could not explain the bulges, the spooning out....  These were just installers....Not even Thermocore Employees! They stated that Mr. Egan would not like to hear what they had to tell him , and if they spoke out of line, they might lose work!

The panels were exactly the size depicted on the Drawings! They did an awesome job of this.....No dispute there!

Prove your worth to the Industry, come see my house!!! Anyone!!!! Come and check it out! Maybe someday Thermocore might come here with their engineers......oh they have none, I forgot!

jstelmack,, So, when you buy a new truck......and the truck  dies every 50 miles..... you tow it home... you go to the dealer......they say that nothing is wrong.......over and over, what would you do?  The Dealer lies.......Does nothing........The repairs cost more than over half of the value of the new truck!

If I purchased a new truck and it was a lemon I would certainly take advantage of lemon laws and get a full refund. If necessary I would hire credible experts to examine and document the product behavior/flaws and provide expert witness in court. If, on the other hand, I purchased a box of parts and chose to have it assembled by inexperienced people, I guess the truck would sit in my garage as a hard lesson learned.

The questions written earlier were to suggest a different approach to your problem. You could have an independent and unbiased expert collect the facts and propose a remediation plan. So far, we have before us, a story... A tale told by a person with intense emotion. Since this is your house, your money and your dilemma, the story is biased. As would be expected under the circumstances. I'm just suggesting that unbiased professional collaboration of your story could possibly be helpful to your cause. Seeing no collaboration from unbiased experts, after so much time has passed, makes one wonder why.

So, the movies and the pics are a story? You think that what you observe is normal?

In other words , you have not a clue.... as to what might have caused these panels to do such things? Must be the owners fault.......Well, to tell you the truth, we have had other companies come here. They were puzzled as well. But like most contractors........We cannot get involved............

These panels were perfect in shape and size...all cut outs were perfect for the doors and windows. Panels went up perfect, never been wet etc...........Problems started after installation.......................

I am sorry, but if you clearly cannot see problems with these panels..... or what they are doing to this house....wow.......... So....With the pics posted for all to see, why is it so difficult for people to chime in on the floor plate size etc.....could this be a factor.  Or are the self proclaimed experts  just bashers, and really can care less about the problems with the Panel Systems.

So what do you think could cause these panels to behave in such a way?

Lemon law not that easy...... LOL...You crack me up!


Hire witness, got them....what witness do I need, you have seen the movies!
 "Sir,,, I swear, these Panels are bowed"! LOL  It is obvious!  Besides, it is not only my problem, but could be the problem of prospective clients!!! I would hate for them to get Lemon juice all over them as well!!!

Besides, one thing to consider people....when you purchase out of state,  the Legal fee's seem to cost more!! LOL.

All I can "see" is what is in the videos and pictures. Which I might add are lacking required quality to make a determination. Also, there are people who can use programs like photoshop or other editors to make a picture/video show whatever the author wants it to show.

The bottom plate? In my mind it should be snug between the interior and exterior skins. That's just mechanical reasoning going on in my head. The accepted tolerances are defined by the manufacturer so they are the only people qualified to answer that question.

The acoustic properties of the panels should be defined by the manufacturer.

It seems you've run out of material in the chapter on panel (sic) problems and have turned your aggression on me. Have fun with it while it lasts. Until you have an unbiased exert examine the installation, you remain a story teller. When you finish the chapter on bashing the one guy that was trying to guide you towards a successful conclusion, put down your pen. Let an expert write the next chapter to your story. It might, just might, give you a happy ending. On the other hand, it might be the manufacture who enjoys the happy ending.

There are things in your photos that indicate focus should be in places other then where you have been. However, in efforts to defend against frivolous lawsuits by people demonstrating maladjusted behavior, unfounded complaints and combative to those who try to help, we must keep those ideas to ourselves. Have you noticed that after you were given advice on the direction to take, and you rejected it, people stopped trying to help you? I suggest AGAIN that you hire an expert to examine the installation and approach a remedy through science and professionalism using methods accepted by the construction industry and courts.

You now add that you've had "other companies" come to the site and examine the installation. But they "could not gt involved"? If they could not get involved, why did they go there in the first place? Why were their findings not posted? Or even mentioned until now? This only adds to my wonderment of why that particular chapter is not being written...

I just saw your next post. Your apparent lack of understanding of what a "Professional Witness" is and the value they bring to the table is astounding. I've no further interest in discussing this with you. Good luck.

You are awesome!!!!

The bottom plates do not touch the panels.

Too bad with the your apparent wealth of knowledge that  you could not help more.... 



Thanks for your advice, You have been  a great help.

You just don't get it.

Enjoy your new home, live long and prosper.

Posted By fixsips on 21 Mar 2010 01:08 PM So, when you buy a new truck......and the truck  dies every 50 miles..... you tow it home... you go to the dealer......they say that nothing is wrong.......over and over, what would you do?  The Dealer lies.......Does nothing........The repairs cost more than over half of the value of the new truck!

I would sue them.

Here is the Story on Kevin's house.  We did manufacture panels for Kevin's house to his and his builders specs.  The panels were delivered on site without problems.  The panels were not installed by Thermocore's installers.  Kevin is suing the installers that he hired.  Kevins house is noisey because he lives 100 feet from Interstate 55.  The panels are not the source of his noise problems.  The bowing is in an area where the panels were altered after delivery.  We have had two crews inspect Kevin's house and we have made an offer to fix his bowing issue dispite the fact that Thermocore is not the source of the problem and the panels are without deffect.  His house is in no danger of falling down.  Kevin has refused to live up to the terms of our agreement of fixing the panels so we have not done any work.  Kevin has lived and continues to live in the house.  We have done and offered all that we can but have found Kevin intrest lies in forums and web sites rather than fixing his house.  Both crews that inspected Kevin's house came to the same conclusion.  His house is noisey because he lives 100 ft from Interstate 55 and his house is in no danger of falling down.  Anyone who has any question about Kevin's project can contact me @ 317-831-8888.  Ask for Pat