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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Feb 2014 12:26 PM |
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Posted By ricky_005 on 13 Feb 2014 10:31 AM
After spending many hours researching metal skinned SIP, I have come to the conclusion they are only useful in very simple small one story box designs. As complexity increases beyond a simple box you would need to add structural steel which would run construction cost up rapidly.
If your building a small home and not concerned about the character of the homes exterior it would be a excellent way to construct.
But I think the product is overall best suited to the metal building industry where you attach the metal insulated SIP skins to a base channel and sidewall/endwall girts and the metal building frame takes the majority of the dead/live/wind/seismic loads.
If you find this untrue in your opinion, please post some photos and links to high end homes utilizing it in a roof and wall designs to prove me wrong. Understand though ... I think its a great product and would like to use it in my new home build, but the limitations it creates requires heavy structural steel framing to add design flexibility and the down fall is cost escalates QUICKLY.
Ricky_005, You could not be more wrong with your assessment the following link shows many steel SIP projects some very complex , without heavy steel www.PermaThermSips.comthe Greyhawk project was done with round walls and round roof self supported with no heavy steel the South Carolina project was done by an owner-builder |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 13 Feb 2014 01:53 PM |
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Thanks for your response cmkavala ..... was looking for someone to prove me wrong and you have done that. I'm very impressed with your work you displayed on your link. Hip and valley connections and wide openings for windows and doors that fall close to roof line are a great concern to me using metal SIP. What ever I build I want it to far exceed structural standards for residential construction at minimal cost. If I did a metal SIP skinned home, I would want to use 8" for walls and 12" for roof Here are a few home exterior styles I'm considering building. One thing which would have to be done is to hide the thickness of the roof SIP. I suppose this would be accomplished by flushing the roof panels with outer wall panels. Than attach 2x metal studs to form overhangs for gables and eaves at sidewalls. By doing this you would be hiding the fact it was a SIP roof and hold to an architecturally appeasing eave and gable lines.    |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 13 Feb 2014 01:55 PM |
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More pics   |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 13 Feb 2014 04:35 PM |
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Ricky,
I wonder how strong the false built eave would be if the SIP broke over the wall panel? Would it snap off during a strong wind? |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 13 Feb 2014 09:48 PM |
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Working on a detail .....
I wonder if any of the manufactures have already come up with custom transitional rake and eave parts which reduce in thickness for this purpose?
For Example
Starting and Ending roof panel Transitions which reduce to 5.5" for overhang.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 14 Feb 2014 07:58 AM |
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Posted By ricky_005 on 13 Feb 2014 09:48 PM
Working on a detail .....
I wonder if any of the manufactures have already come up with custom transitional rake and eave parts which reduce in thickness for this purpose?
For Example
Starting and Ending roof panel Transitions which reduce to 5.5" for overhang.
ricky, since 12" roofs are not often used, the transition design is a "site specific condition" and the design professionals responsibility, same as the pagoda style roof in your photos all the styles shown are all do-able, however with any construction method , the more complex the design , the higher the cost |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 14 Feb 2014 09:59 AM |
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The home with the pagoda style roof is Awesome..... If you look at the fascia its about 12". What I'm curious about, is that a built-in gutters and the downspouts are hidden in the right side wall? Or is that just molding being used as the fascia board and no gutters? http://www.houzz.com/projects/24482...-Residence
http://static.panoramio.com/pho...508567.jpgWhen I get around to doing a preliminary estimate if the numbers work out, that very well may be the home we build minus some windows. |
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Neill
New Member
Posts:3
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| 15 Feb 2014 12:28 PM |
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We have a client interested in replacing their existing roof on a 6,000 SF building in San Francisco, CA. The existing structure has CMU walls that need to be tested to see if they have rebar, a concrete slab floor, steel trusses with a steel corrugated roof and no insulation below. The building was built at the turn of the century and is currently used as a automobile repair shop with car lifts, etc…The client would like to renovate the building for commercial office or art gallery use. We are interested interested in replacing the roof that will need to be insulated and have a descent look from below, as well as not add significantly to the weight or it will trigger a full seismic upgrade of the building. Can you please us know what our options might be as well as cost? Thank You. |
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JeffD
Basic Member
Posts:282
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| 16 Feb 2014 08:52 AM |
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ricky_005, A support structure is almost always needed for larger homes. In the hands of a knowledgeable person metal SIPs have very few limitations. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pane...9020856552 |
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| Metal SIP Building Designer<br>jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 16 Feb 2014 02:39 PM |
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Thanks for the link Jeff ..... The pieces are starting to come together. |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 26 Feb 2014 09:53 AM |
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ricky my 2-story steel SIP home is 30 feet at the highest ridge beam and didn't require significant extra structural steel.
The outside is all cosmetic, as in any construction method. You can achieve whatever you want. I might suggest opening your mind regarding how to achieve the look of the eaves. Here me out on this: Thin reveals can look cheap, while thicker ones give a more substantial quality. Often carpenters are trying to create illusions to add the appearance of thickness in stick-built homes. Consider the third photo down that you posted as an example (it has a balcony at the front with a hip). They have covered the rafter tails with a moulded fascia at an angle. That reveal probably ends up being 8 inches and has a massive quality that implies solidity. So while I think 12 inch panels on the roof is overkill, you could go with 8 inch panels and get a very similar visual effect. |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 26 Feb 2014 02:26 PM |
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Thanks jelly,
The home with the balcony is the one I'm planning on building. The thick fascia detail with crown molding adds shadow lines which attribute to the character. I'm rather certain it is a built-in gutter system behind the crown molding. To cut cost for the eaves I'm thinking about using foam cut crown molding with EIFS finish, or some sort of plastic crown molding and the gutter behind all the trim. Rather concerned about the durability of foam or plastic trim construction at the eave, but using wood crown molding at that width would mean $$$$$ and problems with decay. I say the Fascia is about 12" in the pic ..... Very DEEP
Yes, the more I think about it 12" metal SIP panels it might be over kill, but I was thinking about the increase dead loads a 12" SIP roof would bring.
I guess a 8" panel would protect the attic area about as well as 12" for here in the south, our temperature range is only about 25° winter and 98° in the summer. My choice will most likely be between 8" or 10" SSIP only to scale the fascia to correct proportions.
Any economical ideas on how to do the built-in gutter trim would be appreciated. |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 28 Feb 2014 12:54 PM |
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Hey Ricky, I'm in the south too. I think 8 inch EPS panels would perform very well on the roof. And metal skins in my opinion are definitely the only way to go, especially considering the region and climate.
I suppose it depends on your budget, but it seems a built-in gutter system is going to start adding quite a bit in skilled labor costs. Are you doing the work yourself? I am also concerned about the problems you may open yourself up to with such a concealed system. Have you considered half-round gutters? They have a very sophisticated old-world look and would provide the shadow lines and character without adding wood, foam, paint, or stucco at the fascia - having nothing but metal up there is very desirable.
BTW do you have another thread for your project here in the forum? It sounds like a pretty interesting build. Would be nice to have a dedicated thread instead of continuing to add on to the end of this one.
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 28 Feb 2014 03:48 PM |
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Will have to ponder around for some ideas about what to do about the fascia. No big rush ..... will be starting the build in about another 2 years. Will be doing some of the less intensive work myself, most divisions will be subbed out. If I have the time, I will start a thread once the build starts.
Right now I'm working out all the details before I start drawing up the plans ..... lots of work to do just drawing the custom details and cross sections. The build will be a combination of ICF and SSIP.
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 28 Feb 2014 09:54 PM |
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The 2012 IECC calls for R-49 for the ceiling in a Zone 4 climate. That would require a 12" SIP.
I am going to use a 12" SIP on my build. My architect is working on a way to break the 12" fascia so that it doesn't appear as large. This can be done with visually breaking the fascia by creating a line or architectural break to trick the eye into seeing two 6" elements.
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 01 Mar 2014 01:54 AM |
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@Lbear I will be building in Zone 3 which is R38 for roof which in SSIP will be 10" EPS .... If I can make 12" work visually I will go with 12" The way I look at it, if you plan on owning the home for a while .... build it right the first time, its just so much easier and cheaper rather than doing modifications in the future. As energy prices have gone up, so has insulation requirement. Their are signs everywhere in the energy sector and government that is saying, Buckle up they are going to be coming for your Wallets in the near future. So mid as well think ahead and prepare. Even though I live in zone 3, I will increase the R amount close to, if not to zone 4.  Please let my know what your architect comes up with .... I have a a couple of Ideas in my head ..... they all seem to have some issues here and there, but what doesn't? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 01 Mar 2014 06:29 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 28 Feb 2014 09:54 PM
The 2012 IECC calls for R-49 for the ceiling in a Zone 4 climate. That would require a 12" SIP.
I am going to use a 12" SIP on my build. My architect is working on a way to break the 12" fascia so that it doesn't appear as large. This can be done with visually breaking the fascia by creating a line or architectural break to trick the eye into seeing two 6" elements.
You could simply use a thinner panel with additional EPS on interior side of panel supported with 6" or 4" - "Z" furring  |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ricky_005
Basic Member
Posts:313
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| 01 Mar 2014 07:31 PM |
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Maybe a custom gutter is the answer ..... can the roll former be be setup for a 8K and change the B dimension from 5 3/8" to 3 3/8"?  Here is a giant gutter that would work well I think to accent a 12" thick SSIP  Another interesting gutter on the china market http://kealno.manufacturer.globalso...Gutter.htm |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 02 Mar 2014 01:29 PM |
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Chris, I can't remember how this goes - the foam can be left exposed if it's in an attic space right, but has to be covered with sheetrock if it's considered living space? Or does it have to be covered either way?
Posted By cmkavala on 01 Mar 2014 06:29 AM
You could simply use a thinner panel with additional EPS on interior side of panel supported with 6" or 4" - "Z" furring
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 02 Mar 2014 01:36 PM |
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Jelly,
R316.5.3 Attics.
The thermal barrier specified in Section R316.4 is not required where all of the following apply:
1. Attic access is required by Section R807.1.
2. The space is entered only for purposes of repairs or maintenance.
3. The foam plastic insulation is protected against ignition using one of the following ignition barrier materials:
3.1. 11/2-inch-thick (38 mm) mineral fiber insulation;
3.2. 1/4-inch-thick (6.4 mm) wood structural panels;
3.3. 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) particleboard;
3.4. 1/4-inch (6.4 mm) hardboard;
3.5. 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) gypsum board; or
3.6. Corrosion-resistant steel having a base metal thickness of 0.016 inch (0.406 mm);
3.7. 11/2-inch-thick (38 mm) cellulose insulation.
The above ignition barrier is not required where the foam plastic insulation has been tested in accordance with Section R316.6. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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