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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 24 Mar 2012 04:45 PM |
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Lee,
Thanks for the info on the screens. Screens are necessary and when spending a considerable amount of money it should not be an "afterthought." |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 24 Mar 2012 08:37 PM |
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Posted By EnerLux on 24 Mar 2012 11:42 AM
Lbear, stop posting. I think people are tired of you presenting false information and presenting yourself as an expert.
First, you are not a moderator and have no right to tell me to stop posting. Second, we are in a discussion and while we have differing views, I have the same right to post and discuss just like you do. Third, I never claimed to be an "expert". If one claims to be an "expert" does that make their comments infallible? I believe not. There are some self proclaimed "experts" here on the forum that are just feeding their own egos, while others are here to push product lines they sell and profit from. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 24 Mar 2012 08:42 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 24 Mar 2012 12:53 AM
They don't "mass produce" like the big name window companies.
Another incorrect statement. It's one thing to tout the features of your favorites, but why the need for the bogus info about all the others?
Marvins and Pellas, just a couple of the "big name" companies that have been discussed here, are custom made. They are made when you order them - to your size and specifications. My Pella build time was three weeks - from date of order to delivery. Every one made to order.
Marvin will even do custom glazing by putting your choice of glass and coatings into the windows.
I just went to Lowe's and they had Pella windows and patio doors sitting on their shelves, ready to buy & walk out the door with. That is what I was referring to. They "mass produce" windows for Lowes that sit on their shelves. The remaining sizing and styles are of course custom ordered by the home owner. |
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www.greenss.net
New Member
Posts:16
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| 25 Mar 2012 10:06 AM |
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I believe that many forums have too much opinion based information on them. If you want to see the differences between certain window companies all you need to do is go to the National Fenestration Rating Councils website and see first hand. http://www.nfrc.org/ Intus and Serious blow away Pella when you look at there numbers. The biggest advantage to using a window not sold at your LUMBER-MARTS is that you have much better seals. This is the most important part of any window or door. That is where you really see a difference. Unfortunately most American window companies have not put as much engineering into the seals. Thus the lower price. Attention to detail does cost you. The American made window companys have not had to focus on performance like they are now. It has always been the name that would sell in the past. They are going to need to make major changes soon as the marketplace becomes more educated on the value of performance. Blower door test I believe will be mandatory before you close on a home in the future. This will be a game changer for all window and door companies. Looks alone are not enough for the marketplace anymore. |
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| Brian Shier<br>Green Structure Supply LLC |
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EnerLux
New Member
Posts:20
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| 25 Mar 2012 11:17 AM |
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Lbear, you are bashing not discussing. |
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 25 Mar 2012 05:52 PM |
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Posted By www.greenss.net on 25 Mar 2012 10:06 AM
I believe that many forums have too much opinion based information on them. If you want to see the differences between certain window companies all you need to do is go to the National Fenestration Rating Councils website and see first hand. http://www.nfrc.org/ Intus and Serious blow away Pella when you look at there numbers. The biggest advantage to using a window not sold at your LUMBER-MARTS is ...
I do not know if others have the same problem, but in the last few months I have tried to download the NFRC Certified Products Directory at http://search.nfrc.org/, and even after waiting for several hours, the directory never downloads. Perhaps something is set wrong in my security software. A site that works much better for me is the Natural Resources Canada site at http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/pml-lmp/inde...ce=WINDOWS. This site has two advantages for me: (1) it downloads properly, and (2) it includes the Canadian's Energy Rating Factor, which for people in central and northern U.S. and Canada is often a better measure of efficiency than the simple thermal conductivity factor (U-factor). Mr. Shier, I find you post disingenuous. First you say stick to the the facts and avoid opinion based information, and then you are off bashing some brands relative to other brands. Please stick to the facts and show results for energy savings per dollar spent for various windows using two specified locations, a predominately cooling climate and a predominately heating climate (preferably with high solar insolation), and software like RESFEN, BEopt, or the software of your choice, preferably public-domain software so that your results are easily duplicated. I would suggest leaving brand names out, and just show the important parameters like U-factor, SHGC, leakage (when specified), the ER factor, and the energy savings/dollar spent. Now that would be more than just opinion-based information. |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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EnerLux
New Member
Posts:20
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| 29 Mar 2012 08:02 PM |
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Lbear, when can we expect the apples to apples comparison for the windows you are promoting on the message board? |
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 03 Apr 2012 10:19 AM |
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I must admit, I have done the price studies many times, however have not compared the US triple pane options vs Canadian ones. I have posted my results on Green Building Advisor. I compared test results and prices from Pella, Marvin Integrity, Andersen 400s, Inline windows, Fibertec windows, Thermotech windows, and Serious Windows. From Pella they were the Impervia and Prolines. I also recieved a price on the Designers. From Marvin were the wood Ultrex. All Canadian windows were full fiberglass. I recieved prices in both double and triple pane options.
I narrowed it down to the Pella Impervia, Marvin Wood Ultrex and lowest priced fiberglass, Inline.
The Inline obviously had the best u values and lowest infiltration number. However compared to the Pella Impervia, not by much. The Pella has a .05 and Inline is .03. (numbers located on their websites). Integrity does not have the exact number posted. U values on the Pella and double pane Inline were the same (both .28) with similar SHG values. The Inline costs on the double panes were about 15-20% more, depending on the windows.
Triple pane options were about 25-30% more then the Pellas, with u values dropping to .19 if I recall (do not have the numbers infront of me).
However plugging these into RESFEN, my results were not favorable at all for triple pane windows, certainly not the same finding LBear is claiming, even in my Zone 6.
Triple pane windows were 2-3k more total. When the total heat load on the house is 21k, it takes a long time to pay off 2-3k when only saving 60-100 max a year or less.
Pella also offers a newer Natural Sun glass option for south glazing. U is .3 and SHG is .57. Use this glass on the south and the payoff gap increases even more.
However to close claims that US companies can not make a good triple pane windows for less, Pella also now offers their 350 series vinyl window in a Triple pane option. It was only about a 5-10% upcharge over the fiberglass Impervias according to my price quotes, with very impressive numbers.
Double pane numbers are: .24u and .17 SHG
Triple pane numbers are .17u and .19 SHG.
With their Natural sun, you can get .21u and .36 SHG. All for around $320 for a 2'8x 4'0" casement. |
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 03 Apr 2012 02:36 PM |
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Posted By lzerarc on 03 Apr 2012 10:19 AM
I must admit, I have done the price studies many times, however have not compared the US triple pane options vs Canadian ones. I have posted my results on Green Building Advisor. I compared test results and prices from Pella, Marvin Integrity, Andersen 400s, Inline windows, Fibertec windows, Thermotech windows, and Serious Windows. ...
However plugging these into RESFEN, my results were not favorable at all for triple pane windows, certainly not the same finding LBear is claiming, even in my Zone 6. ...
Glad to see that you are looking at window choices from a scientific and financial standpoint, as opposed to some posters who simply like to bash one brand or another based on very little analysis. You refer to posting your results on Green Building Advisor. Can you please provide the link? Thanks. |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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windowrookie
Basic Member
Posts:104
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| 03 Apr 2012 09:49 PM |
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Izerarc
I couldn't find neither the .28U double glazed Impervias nor the .30U with the .57SHGC on NFRC.
Where did you get those numbers? |
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windowrookie
Basic Member
Posts:104
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| 03 Apr 2012 10:03 PM |
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Just checked Inline as well, they have a double pane casement with a .22U with .18 SHGC. |
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 04 Apr 2012 09:02 AM |
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WR- the Pella one is in the architectural design manual I have. You can also get it from the downloaded pdf product data from their website. http://www.pellaadm.com/
On the flip side, I am not finding your claimed dual pane u.22. Posted below is an email I recieved from Inline with the current values.
Double Pane - CARDINAL 366 OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00091-00001 0.28 0.19 0.45
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00092-00001 0.28 0.19 0.45
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00088-00001 0.26 0.22 0.52
Double Pane - CARDINAL 272 OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00088-00001 0.28 0.29 0.49
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00089-00001 0.29 0.29 0.49
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00090-00001 0.27 0.33 0.57
Double Pane – LOF HARD COAT OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00089-00001 0.31 0.50 0.53
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00090-00001 0.32 0.50 0.53
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00091-00001 0.30 0.58 0.61
Triple Pane – LOF HARD COAT x 2 OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00095-00001 0.22 0.43 0.45
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00095-00001 0.22 0.43 0.45
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00092-00001 0.19 0.50 0.52
Triple Pane - CARDINAL 272 x 2 OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00093-00001 0.20 0.25 0.39
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00093-00001 0.20 0.25 0.39
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00094-00001 0.16 0.28 0.46
Triple Pane - CARDINAL 366 x 2 OVERALL WINDOW
WINDOW TYPE CPD # U Value SHGC Vt
325 SER > Casement IFL-A-5-00097-00001 0.20 0.17 0.32
325 SER > Awning IFL-A-7-00097-00001 0.20 0.17 0.32
325 SER > High Pro Fixed IFL-A-4-00095-00001 0.16 0.19 0.37
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windowrookie
Basic Member
Posts:104
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| 04 Apr 2012 09:26 AM |
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Izerarc
IFL-A-5-00081-00002 .22u, .17shgc, .36vt, 2 glazing layers, 325 casement
These numbers are NFRC, not from the manufacturer. That is why I questioned the Pella and Intus window on the other post. I only use NFRC as this is in my opinion the only apples to apples true comparison....
Let me know if you find it. I will look at the Pella's. Thanks!
Actually, just checked your link. The Pella numbers are based on NFRC 100 not actual NFRC, hence the asterisk.
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lzerarc
Basic Member
Posts:423
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| 04 Apr 2012 09:53 AM |
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All of these are from the manuf.
However on the NFRC website, I could not find a .28u as listed in the Pella design manual, but a bunch .29u are there. |
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galore
New Member
Posts:40
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| 01 May 2012 10:31 PM |
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I just bought tilt-turn windows, vinyl with aluminum cladding (Trocal 88+). U=0.14, triple pane with Stopsol super silver pyrolitic coating (one-way mirror finish for looks and low SHGC), one 1/4" thick glass pane and two 3/16" thick glass panes, warm edge super spacer for $600/window for a 5ft x 5ft window. This is in combination with exterior aluminum roller shades and should hopefully perform well in Texas.  |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 01 May 2012 11:30 PM |
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Posted By galore on 01 May 2012 10:31 PM
I just bought tilt-turn windows, vinyl with aluminum cladding (Trocal 88+). U=0.14, triple pane with Stopsol super silver pyrolitic coating (one-way mirror finish for looks and low SHGC), one 1/4" thick glass pane and two 3/16" thick glass panes, warm edge super spacer for $600/window for a 5ft x 5ft window.
This is in combination with exterior aluminum roller shades and should hopefully perform well in Texas.
WHO MAKES THIS WINDOW??? |
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arkie6
Veteran Member
Posts:1453
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| 02 May 2012 07:06 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 01 May 2012 11:30 PM
Posted By galore on 01 May 2012 10:31 PM
I just bought tilt-turn windows, vinyl with aluminum cladding (Trocal 88+). U=0.14, triple pane with Stopsol super silver pyrolitic coating (one-way mirror finish for looks and low SHGC), one 1/4" thick glass pane and two 3/16" thick glass panes, warm edge super spacer for $600/window for a 5ft x 5ft window.
This is in combination with exterior aluminum roller shades and should hopefully perform well in Texas.
WHO MAKES THIS WINDOW???
I did a quick google search for Trocal 88+ and found this: http://www.trocal-profile.com/ecoma...8_homepage |
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galore
New Member
Posts:40
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| 02 May 2012 10:08 PM |
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This type of window is made by many manufacturers in Germany, Austria and other European countries. Trocal is a very popular PVC extrusion manufacturer over there.
I bought my window at a company called Rekord Fenster in Austria and contracted with a freight company to ship them to Texas. Before I moved to Texas in the 90s, I lived in Austria and speak German fluently so that made it easy for me to purchase them there. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 May 2012 12:49 AM |
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Posted By galore on 02 May 2012 10:08 PM
This type of window is made by many manufacturers in Germany, Austria and other European countries. Trocal is a very popular PVC extrusion manufacturer over there.
I bought my window at a company called Rekord Fenster in Austria and contracted with a freight company to ship them to Texas. Before I moved to Texas in the 90s, I lived in Austria and speak German fluently so that made it easy for me to purchase them there.
Does Intus utilize the same type of uPVC extrusion as your windows? The windows you have utilize a similar sash profile like the Intus, which I believe are Lithuanian but use German-made framing. |
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