Magnesium Oxide Board - is it better than OSB
Last Post 16 Oct 2012 04:41 PM by MgO Corp Pty Ltd. 407 Replies.
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cmkavalaUser is Offline
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14 Mar 2009 07:30 AM
Posted By DavidWilson on 05/24/2007 2:53 PM
Is anyone using Magnesium Oxide Board in place of OSB. I heard it was stronger, more water resistant and cheaper considering less finish work needed.


David Wilson
David;
 
with all that has been said hope you got your answer



Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
Matt B. Phelps, P.E., R.S.User is Offline
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14 Mar 2009 11:54 AM
Hello David,

I own and operated a structural testing lab and have tested OSB, steel channel and MgO SIPs. I have found that all three have similar axial (uniform compressive) load characteristics (about the same as conventional stud frame walls). The bid difference comes in and racking and shear. Both OSB and MgO have outperformed steel channel and conventional wood framing in this category. The problem with MgO has been with debonding. Due to the inherit properties of MgO (porosity) special procedures must be used when using water based adhesives. Unfortunately, we have not completed our debonding testing and I can not tell you more specific information. I do not have any performance data about MgO SIPs using urethane based adhesives.

MgO skins have a front and back side that are smooth or rough. It does not appear that one side has an advantage over another with respect to adhesive bonding; however, the smooth side does appear to have a more "finished" appearance. Both sides appear to be similar to gypsum that is ready to be taped and floated and might provide a suitable surface for painting or other finishing.

I hope this has helped you in your decision making. In general I would like to add that although MgO SIPs do possess many desirable qualities and they have shown favorable results thus far, no testing (that I am doing, or am aware of) is complete. A check of the International Code Council Evaluation Service (ICC-ES) web site will reveal that there are no certified MgO SIPS (or any other use) by the ICC-ES. There are numerous ICC-ES certifications for OSB SIP's. I do not know if there are any ICC-ES certifications for steel channel SIPs.

If you would like to discuss this further or need additional information, please contact me off list using my contact information below.

Best of Luck to you!

Matt

Matt B. Phelps, P.E., R.S.
SIP Engineering & Testing, LLC
201 CR 138
Hutto, Texas 78634
512-670-9400
[email protected]



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14 Mar 2009 12:02 PM
http://www.magnumbp.com/
http://www.mag-board.com/
Both of these companies make MGO board SIPs.
Watch the video of the fire test of the Mag-Board Sips
How anyone selling OSB could watch that and then continue selling something that burns so fast as thier product does is baffling.  I defend thier right to do so but I say it will only change when the buying public educates themselves.


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14 Mar 2009 12:14 PM
http://www.magwall.com/


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14 Mar 2009 01:56 PM
Matt
Thank-you for your insight concerning the MgO2 board. We have been using this product in the manufacture of our Lop-sided ICF (replacing Hardie as well as Drywall on the interior). Are you aware of any potential current of future negative aspects? Thus far our experience has been nothing but positive (we use a poly-urethane adhesive to attach our concrete transverse both to the EPS and MgO2 board).


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14 Mar 2009 05:46 PM
Where does the end user buy it?


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14 Mar 2009 06:36 PM


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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15 Mar 2009 08:15 AM
Is the inner ply of osb sips an exterior grade plywood?

Chris, both the last linked report and more so your expert report indicate exterior grade phenol adhered panels are within safe limits. Even your first linked report had a table of randomly selected conventional built new and old houses and all were well within safe limits. New homes tested had levels well within safe limits and those rates gradually subside. The report also said the human body can easily deal with these levels of formaldehyde, basically there are many more sources of formaldehyde in higher quantities that should be worried about.

I think builders need to pay attention about their high voc sealants and adhesives and all the interior grade plywood, mdo, and mdf that goes into new homes rather than worry about osb.

MgO board looks interesting, but how time tested is it?


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15 Mar 2009 10:26 AM

greentree;

the areas of concern are in bold and while they off gas at slower rates, there is no indication hat they stop off-gassing before they are installed. A normal house might have osb on the exterior surfaces only, but an OSB SIPs house is completely surounded on the interior surface area with OSB, plus plywood cabinets, engineered wood floors, MDF trim, etc. and really overloading the indoor air quality:

GridMarkedSheathing

Plywood, oriented strand board (OSB) and medium-density fiberboard (MDF) are more alike than they are different. They are all resource efficient choices. Wood not useful as dimensional lumber can be pressed and bonded with adhesives to form sheet goods for sheathing, furniture and flooring. Fiberboard can be made from plant fibers, recycled wood, or paper.

However, most conventional plywood, OSB and MDF are bonded with formaldehyde adhesives that off-gas and negatively affect indoor air quality. The Environmental Protection Agency has classified formaldehyde as a probable human carcinogen. Long term inhalation of the vapors can cause fatigue, respiratory illness, and allergic skin reactions.

The two most widely used formaldehyde adhesives are urea formaldehyde (UF), and phenol formaldehyde (PF). Most softwood plywoods used for outdoor and structural applications, like sheathing and floors, are bonded with the more expensive, water-resistant PF, which off-gasses at a much slower rate than UF. This means the vapors will persist longer, but at much lower concentrations, so most people consider them safer. Ironically enough, the hardwood plywoods most often used inside the home for cabinetry and paneling are bonded with UF, considered the more harmful of the two.

To avoid this harmful off-gassing altogether, request "formaldehyde free" manufactured wood products. If that is unavailable in your area, look for an "exterior glue" stamp on regular plywood. This indicates PF is the adhesive. If UF-bonded sheet goods can't be avoided, sealing with a low-toxicity sealant will keep the harmful vapors from seeping into your home.



Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
Matt B. Phelps, P.E., R.S.User is Offline
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15 Mar 2009 01:14 PM
This information regarding UF and PF adhesives used for OSB is a bit misleading.

With all due respect, one should remember that SIPs have an interior skin and an exterior skin, so the only portion of OSB/OSB SIPs that can impact indoor air quality would be the interior OSB skin. The exterior SIP skin, which is also OSB may still off gas except it will be outside the structure; therefore, the worst case scenario would only be 1/2 of what is being suggested in other post. This is based upon Expanded PolyStyrene (EPS) foam manufactures. Testing confirms that EPS does not transmit air (or air borne chemicals) through the foam. This issue is further reduced by the fact that air pressure in the structure is higher than pressure outside the structure. With higher indoor air pressure this would tend to cause off gassing to be pushed out of the structure through the walls, roof, etc. rather than circulated around inside the structure. Since SIPs do not transmit air through them very much this may be less of a case for SIPs. All of these issues are based upon the assumptions that the OSB were produced using UF or PF adhesives.

While I agree that UF and PF based adhesives remain the most common adhesives for most engineered wood products (note this includes glulam beams, plywood and virtual all engineered wood products), these adhesives are hardly the only options for interior engineered wood products. Much of this is perpetuated by vendors who are attempting to discredit a competitor and hoping to exploit a perceived competitive advantage the may not really exit, or exit only under specific conditions.

This discussion does bring up a excellent point and that is for buyers to request SIPs made from formaldehyde free adhesives, or at least on the interior wood based skin. Although not common, some manufactures such as Columbia Forest Products, Pure Bond (columbiaforestproducts.com), Paperstone (paperstoneproducts.com), and others are making plywood, OSB and other engineered wood products from formaldehyde free adhesives. Columbia Forest Products pure bond is a soy based adhesive that is UF and PF free. (I think this is really cool because I am from a farm family!)

Other options would be to use mixed SIPs that utilize different skin materials. This could typical take the form of a SIP with an exterior skin of OSB (conventional UF or PF adhesives would be not be an indoor air quality issue) and and interior skin of MgO, FC or other material. Although, testing is on going, mixed skin SIPs, may offer several advantages over SIPs with both interior and exterior skins made from the same material.

If you would like to discuss mixed skin SIPs further, please contact me off line at the contact information below.

Best of luck!

Matt



Matt B. Phelps, P.E., R.S.
SIP Engineering & Testing, LLC
201 CR 138
Hutto, Texas 78634
512-670-9400 office
[email protected]


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15 Mar 2009 02:57 PM

Matt;

 

If you are talking about the 3800 sq. ft. , I only took half.  A 2000 sq.ft. OSB home would have about 2 layers of roof @ 2100 sq.ft (slope in roof) and 2 layers of walls @ 1700 sq. ft. is 3800 x 2 layers = 7600 sq. ft. / 2 for one side only is 3800 sq. ft.

One cannot assume that there would be positive pressure in a home, in fact most homes have negative pressure and most homes leak at the sill plate sucking in exterior air at that point where pesticides are usually sprayed.

Not all  ERVs or HRVs have the ability to introduce positive pressure, it can be done with a simple 4" pipe. However this is not done by many builders.

negative pressure is created by turning on and exhaust fan or even just by the air handler running by itself

If you have not specifically provided for an outside air source - you will have negative air pressure



Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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15 Mar 2009 09:04 PM
Matt, I hope that you have the patience to respond to CK's last post which is addressed to you.

However, I feel obligated to respond to one of his comments re ".......most homes leak at the sill plate.............." Since we're talking about SIP homes here, I think that I'm pretty safe in saying that properly constructed SIP homes DON'T leak at the sill plate (even those built with "steel skinned sips") It seems to me that fact pretty much negates the basic theory being presented in the subject post.

While I'm here, I'd like to just respond briefly to a recent on topic posts by jusaxeme re: The flammability of OSB vs MO board, and the reference to the MagWall website.

First, I don't think that anyone would argue the fact that OSB is a flammable material, and MO board, and steel, are not. (within the range of temperatures normally encountered in typical structure fires. Having said that, there is much documentation of instances where certain types of steel structural components failed, and wood members maintained their structural integrity for a longer period of time, allowing for the building's occupants safe egress)

However, there are code approved osb sip assemblies that will result in thermal barriers that will meet virtually any requirement for any type of structure that is suitable for this type of construction in the first place. (There are some excellent videos that demonstrate this fact on the R-Control website)

In regards to MagWall, and other current, and future, producers of a product such as this, I say "go for it!" Maybe this techology will put the OSB industry out of business (not just the "OSB SIP" industry, but the entire OSB sheathing industry) However, I'm thinking that may not happen for quite awhile, for a lot of reasons, eg: production capacity, size of panels (OSB 8' x 24', and larger), testing, and code approval processing, to name a few.

In the meantime OSB SIPs continue to offer a viable option for those who want to build super energy efficient, homes, with a readily available, easy to work with, competitively priced, building system. This system also meets virtually every building code in the U.S. as well as being accepted as a "green building system" under guidelines developed by most related agencies and organizations.




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16 Mar 2009 05:04 AM

Sipper;

Most homes are not SIPS homes, but the sill is a constuction detail often overlooked by many builders. We use expandable foam to fill uneven slab/plate conditions.
A thermal barrier is a code requirement for all OSB panels and is not a fire barrier, I have photos of a metal panel one hour fire test that shows no foam degradation when used with steel hi-hat furring and drywall
Metal panels are available up to 53 ft. in length and have been used in every state, carribean and internationally, are also accepted as a "green building system"
OSB is a viable option , as long as termites are not a concern



Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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16 Mar 2009 05:51 PM
But, CK, we're NOT talking about "most homes" here.........we're talking about "SIP Homes"! Right? That was the context of my last post which was responding to your post at 2:57 PM on 3/15 re: 3,800 sq ft of OSB.........positive pressure......negative pressure......leaking at sill plates..............ERV's, HRV's..............etc etc (I think that you lost Matt Phelps on that one)

On the issue of "OSB and a Thermal Barrier" please re read what I said "......there are code approved osb sip ASSEMBLIES that will result in thermal barriers that.................." (Just as there are code approved metal sip ASSEMBLIES that achieve similiar results) I also pointed out that there are videos on the R-Control website that illustrate this fact.

OK, so you got us on the 53' long metal sip, we can only get 24' long osb sips. By the way are the metal sips that you offer available in 8' widths? If they are, that's great, and you got us again, this is really a very convenient option, particularly for large roof areas, walls too, especially with an 8' plate height, but also eliminates about 50% of the panel connections in walls with higher plate heights.

On the termite issue, you might want to visit the R-Control website and check out the latest option that they offer: "FrameGuard"
Here's the exact quotation from their website: "The entire SIP, when treated with the FrameGuard coating, prevents mold, mildew, and termite, damage to its wood componts"


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16 Mar 2009 06:05 PM

Sipper;

 

got a little off the track with the sill plate thing, but thought it was important to note.

No I do't think I lost Matt, he probably just not kept up with the posts.

Actually I have done 28ft. OSB, but it is not very common.

metal SIPs stock come in coils, I have done 24", 36" 1 meter, 45.5" and 48", 8ft. is not available (that I know of) but it is not a draw back as even 4ft. by 35 ft. we install without a crane. And no splines or spline fasteners, so they really go together faster than an 8ft. wide  OSB jumbo panel. Yes, I have seen the latest frame guard, I am sure it is not free. Have you ever seen termites eat treated lumber? It is quite common.



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16 Mar 2009 06:38 PM

Sipper;

I went to the "FrameGuard® wood " web site and found that the treatment includes borate and other chemicals. I am comfortable with the borate, but would like to know what the "other chemicals" are?



Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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16 Mar 2009 07:41 PM
CK, Ref your last 2 posts:

So everyone is well aware that metal skinned SIPs are lighter than OSB SIPs, and that is a benefit, but you give "short shrift" to the benefits of an 8' wide panel for many applications. By the way, is there a website available that illustrates all of the connection and installation details, test results, code reports, etc for your "shadowline" panel? I'm really interested in how your "snap together" panel connection works. (all of this info is on the R-Control website with easy access by anyone who is interested.)

No, FrameGuard "is not free", and, frankly, I have not stood around watching termites eat treated lumber, but I'll take your word for it. However, have you seen, or heard of, termites eating FrameGuard treated lumber? Maybe there's been an improvement in the technology
like with so many other products over the years.

In regard to the chemical makeup of FrameGuard, you have access to the same information as I do. This product has been tested and meets the GEI (Green Emmissions Institute) standards for low emitting products. The FrameGuard website also refers to tests and/or listings, as applicable by: AWPA (American Wood Products Association), EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) and ASTM International.

The exact statement in regard to the chemical makeup of the product is "a proprietory broad spectrum of anti-mold and borate chemicals"

I don't think that it's unusual for these types of products to have a "proprietory formula".



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16 Mar 2009 08:00 PM
Sipper;

I am working on a web site to make those details readily accessed, but in the interim would be happy to email you the information if you care to drop me a line.
I am speaking of recent history, you dont need to stand around ,just put a PT stake in the ground in the vicinity of termites and 3 weeks later you can take them home with you.

Proprietary formula ...like 7 special herbs and spices


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16 Mar 2009 08:47 PM
That's OK, CK, I'll just wait until you get your website up.

Next.....Since you haven't put an "FGT" stake in the ground, in the vicinity of termites, to see what happens, then you have no basis to question the findings, reports, listings, etc of the AWPA, ASTM International, EPA, and GEI (by the way, are current steel skinned SIPs any better now than the earlier ones were?......)

Lastly..... "like 7 special herbs and spices" ? Sounds to me like someone who's lost a point, and has nothing to contribute but a sarcastic remark.


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17 Mar 2009 05:37 AM
Posted By The Sipper on 03/16/2009 8:47 PM
That's OK, CK, I'll just wait until you get your website up.

Next.....Since you haven't put an "FGT" stake in the ground, in the vicinity of termites, to see what happens, then you have no basis to question the findings, reports, listings, etc of the AWPA, ASTM International, EPA, and GEI (by the way, are current steel skinned SIPs any better now than the earlier ones were?......)

Lastly..... "like 7 special herbs and spices" ? Sounds to me like someone who's lost a point, and has nothing to contribute but a sarcastic remark.

Sipper;

please a little levity!   ;)


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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