Believe me, CK, I was smiling when I sent that last post!

Please correct the information you are submitting.  Neither of these companies manufacture SIPS.  Just  did not want to embarrass you on the blog.  Be careful

 

SIPGUYNC, If your "warning post" was directed at me, please advise me as to which information that you think  that I need to correct. I've made it very clear many times in previous posts that my firm is a distributor for a specific brand of SIPs (R-Control). I am unaware of any rule that requires one to be a "manufacturer" of SIPs in order to post comments, and engage in related "discussions" on this website.

Sipper,

The "warning" was to JUSAXME for supplying misinformation as the manufacturing of MgOSIPs by companies whom import MgO board.  It was a heads-up to do their homework first.  Sorry for the confusion.

SIPGUYNC

http://www.magwall.com/index.php/system
Sure looks like they make and sell them to me.

Mag boards on SIPs have several issues...firstly is size, at least from our competition they only offer 8 and 9' lengths. Weight is another concern and it is very hard on the assembly crew to move these heavy panels around. Some firms I know buy mag board from China. So I have to ask what is 'green' about that? And what about "China quality"...looking at yogurt in their market, paint, drywall, and heaven's knows what else? I have also heard about de-bonding issues but don't know where that rests at this time.

Back to China sourced mag products. It has to be shipped via a less than enviro friendly truck to some ocean port, maybe Shanghai? Then it crosses the ocean and arrives in port. It has to be handled yet again and shipped via truck or train? On and on. That seems to be missing the point of SIPs and in fact the embedded energy in those SIPs made with mag product/board has got to be a LOT higher than even stick building a home with locally created materials.

Next is magnesium itself. I have a feeling that it is not in our best health interests to be surrounded by it in a building envelope. And if you're terrified by formaldehyde, better throw out all your furniture, cabinets, etc as they're full of glues (laminates too). But the good news I hear is that off gassing is a short lived affair, ends when it 'cures' after manufacture...in other words it doesn't continue indefinitely. So a win for OSB.

Finally cost. OSB I am sure has got to be extremely cheap to manufacture and it is extremely prevalent. I assume there are some mag product builders in North America but at what cost are their products? If I need waterproof, I'll get other generally available products that have been tested and extensively used.

The point of SIPs is to create an energy efficient building envelope using resources that don't come from half way around the globe. I beat every mag board SIPs quote every time so I guess that means something too?

You raise some very good points about MgO and OSB; however, I think it only appropriate to point out that Expanded Poly Styrene (EPS) began life as crude oil.  Most crude oil, like MgO from China is imported from foreign countries a world away from Muleshoe Texas (my home town)!  The point being that no matter what structural skin a SIP is made from if it has an EPS core, it, like the MgO example, has taken that long boat ride from somewhere.  Most of the examples I see regarding EPS tend to focus on how the use of crude oil that is used to make the poly styrene precursor to EPS has a exponential savings of energy (crude oil?) over the life of the structure the EPS is used in.  Should this logic be applied to MgO?  I do not know?  I do know that most people who contact me regarding MgO debonding and other issues seek to replace other building trades, such as gypsum, and are of the opinion that the net savings is sufficient to pay a premium for the MgO skins.  I must admit I have not done an energy balance on this concept, so I do not know how "green" it may, or may not be.

I must agree with you that formaldehydes do pose a potential health threat; however, the APA has published numerous white papers and investigative reports that have consistently provided data that formaldehyde off gassing concentrations are so low that they do not pose a significant health threat. 

On a funny side note, I am aware that magnesium is a macro nutrient and actually has a USDA recommended minimum daily allowance.  I am not suggesting that we should start chowing down on MgO, just that it has not been identified as a unhealthy product.  I am sure the USDA has no recommend daily allowance for formaldehyde.

I also seem to recall from basic chemistry that Mg exist only as a solid (or a solid suspended in a liquid).  I may be wrong, but I do not think Mg can exist as a gas at the temperatures and pressures common to the human environment. 

I also agree that if the project needs waterproofing, use 30 lb felt or some type of home wrap. 

Yes, OSB does cost less that MgO; however, most people hoping to use MgO are looking to replace interior drywall with the interior side of the SIP being MgO.  I am not sure how well that is working, I do not know any one that has actual done this, only talked about using MgO.  I do see how replacing one or more building trades with the properties MgO could result in a lower net cost.  Additionally, I understand that MgO posses a one hour fire rating that OSB typically does not.

If anyone has actual installed SIPs made from MgO please contact me off list.  My contact information is listed below.

Good luck,

Matt B. Phelps, P.E, R.S.

SIP Engineering and Testing, LLC
201 CR 138
Hutto, Texas 78634
[email protected]
512-870-9400 office

Tesla was right and Teslastones both have great concern for houses built of firewood. Interesting choice of words. Also a MGO connection. Are yall the same person. If not the exactly who are you?

He/they also refer to EPS as "Nalpalm", Brawler, these two posters are obviously the same individual, and now it appears that he may be posting under still another user name, that is "jusaxeme". At least, "jusaxme" didn't say "no" when I asked that question in a post on The "residential" forum where you, I, and others, are questioning the agenda(s) of this, or these,
poster(s).

These forums could really be turned into a circus if the use of multiple user names became a widespread practice. It doesn't take much imagination to see how things might evolve.

I don't think that any of the regular participants on these forums would question anyone's right to criticize products that they don't believe in, and to promote products and concepts that they feel offer better solutions. However, I think that most of us resent those who consistently use scare tactics, personal insults, and manipulation of data from reports and studies, to further their agenda. Actually, as has been observed by myself and others, the excerpts from such reports, studies, etc., that have been posted in this regard, never really make the intended point anyway.

Having said all of that, I would suggest that anyone who thinks that they have a better solution to the subject at hand, start promoting his agenda, on the GBT Residential Forum, be it building products/systems, consulting services, books, or??, (hopefully under one user name) That way we can all learn about them. Maybe some, or all, of us will decide to "change horses" when we are exposed to "the light".

In the meantime, I'm going to "keep on Sippin" (I'm not sure that sounds right, but I'm sure that everyone get's my drift.)

Sipper...What are you sippin on? TF systems??? :)

DW........Nope, I'm "sippin" on this forum and "TF iing" on the ICF forum. Actually, we're looking at some projects where we may be "sippin and TF ing" at the same time, mostly in NorCal but have some things going on down South too. We're easy to find on the GBT directory.

I have not read all the posts on this thread, but I found these that I'm interested in:

http://www.mag-wall.com/

Yes it much better. I just came from China where I was visiting a few factories for MgO. We are going to have this product here in short time in two thicknesses, 1/4 and 1/2 inc. The reason why the product is mainly made in China is because the raw material is there in high quantities, also the price . After visiting those factories I am sure that this product will never  be made in USA due to the DEQ regulations here. This product is also used for fireproof doors, ventilation and A/C ducting/ tubing, it can be laminate, it can be used for furnitures, it can be used for floors, ceiling, walls , outside, inside, it can be cut, nailed , screwed, etc.. I am just amazed about this product. I do believe that it will replace everything that is used now strting from the OSB and finishing with the drywall. We are going to import thicker MgO , tongue and groove for floors also.

We are using MgO on the inside our SIP homes, and it is a great product. We are ICC tested and it is excellent for sheetrock alternative, hardiback altnerative, or whatever need you have. It saves quite a bit of time in the building process simply because there is less labor involved when you don't need to hang sheetrock, and there are more than 1/2 the seams to tape and mudd. We are using it more and more and people love it.

you can view power point and details at



http://www.storyq.net/boxes/7417

If you dont mind me asking what company are you with ?

I am very interested in your post. I quick check of the ICC-ES web site and search for magnesium oxide and MgO only returns one product that has an ICC-ES report, it is for a product called Dragonboard and the ICC is for basement use only. The ICC-ES report number is ESR-2716 for the Dragonboard product and is a basement finishing system only. The report holder is TEMO, INC from Michigan.

I have tested a few MgO skins in our structural testing lab and have found them to be fraught with problems in SIP construction. I would like to request a copy of your engineers report. Please respond to my contact information listed below.

Best of luck to you,


Matt B. Phelps, P.E.
SIP Engineering & Testing, LLC
201 CR 138
Hutto, Texas 78634
512/670-9400 (o)
[email protected]

To those who don't know TEMO is an all seasons type sunroom company, who uses SIPs walls and roofs usually very small spans

Just to clarify, the Temo ICC ESR is NOT for SIPS. It is for basement applications only and is an alternative to drywall.

Matt