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NRT.Rob
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| 08/20/2009 9:14 AM |
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but not installed. he already posted costs.
the whole square footage argument is a bit disingenuous really. are you going to shrink the mech room if you don't use a tank? expand it if you do? If not, that argument means nothing. If space is that tight, and of course it is sometimes, then sure, smaller heat sources get valued on more than cost of install and operation.
but a simple insulation blanket can reduce your standby losses.. if they even exist.. to whatever level you wish.
nothing wrong with electric boilers: but there is little reason to 'upgrade' in many cases. If you're DIY'ing the install, in particular, the "upgrade" may not be particularly attractive. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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Blueridge company
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| 08/20/2009 9:33 AM |
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You are partially right about the mechanical room, on average though the only spacious mechanical rooms I see are on the higher end homes. seems that the architects never give up square footage for the mechanic in a small home. This is likely not so prevalent in your region where basements are common. west coast where basements generally do not get placed in contemporary building means that the designers are stuffing the mechanical room with as much as possible.
So shoehorn boiler rooms are not so uncommon.
Yes also it is an up grade, on these terms I see the water heater system as really a down grade.
But it is not the math for me, it is what I prefer my client to have placed in there home. what I see as proper and what I want my time to reflect.
I know early on 15+ years back I did about 10 open loop systems at the urging of the builders to save a dime.
Of all the work I have done over the years it is only those few that cause me concern.
Boilers are proper.
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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NRT.Rob
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| 08/20/2009 9:35 AM |
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| yet repeating it, does not make it so. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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Blueridge company
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| 08/20/2009 9:54 AM |
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| repeating what? |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 08/20/2009 10:02 AM |
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Small spaces, small numbers.
I focus on value added. Most of my customers are Green and/or frugal. Sealed combustion (for tight envelopes and no consumption of conditioned air), 98% thermal efficiency (for economy and fuel savings), nearly silent operation (nobody likes loud), small footprint (more room for living, less space to condition, lower building construction cost AND taxes), direct vent (no chimney or constant draft loss), built in outdoor reset for more comfort and lower "system" fuel consumption. Combustion efficiency is unmatched as properly tuned (performing a proper combustion analysis) will yield the lowest achievable pollution output. Combining this with the naturally low carbon output of natural gas (half the output of coal-fired power plants that produce over half of our electricity) makes the ModCon boiler the clear winner!
There are small ModCon boilers that nicely fit the bill if coupled with the incomparable indirect fired water heater. Lochinvar and Heat Transfer Products make a perfectly good wall-hung sealed combustion boiler vented with 2" PVC. I have installed them both with great success and very happy customers, some of which may never see a financial return on investment.
I wanted to note reflecting on Dana's predictable acuity in respect to ODR. Though PIDs (proportional–integral–derivative controllers) are “all the rage” in industrial applications. In the residential HVAC world (and more particularly in the residential hyrdronic heating field) it is probably safe to say that 99% of the existing boilers and far more than have of the their new replacements continue to use a fixed operation temperature and ambient thermostat.
Though “crude” by mechanical (or process) engineering standards, in this industry an properly programmed reset curve (I find few in such condition) is “rocket science” and I fear will be for some time.
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 08/20/2009 10:06 AM |
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One more item.
On electric boilers.
They are DIY friendly if the system is designed by a professional (rare) Dan being a notable acception, but all electric space heating is short sited.
Since clean Nuclear energy is literally decades away, fossil fuels will be our friends for some time. |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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NRT.Rob
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| 08/20/2009 10:09 AM |
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| depends on your area morgan. if you have .06/cent electricity, that's typically local hydro. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 08/20/2009 10:31 AM |
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I know you will enlighten me, but if I'm not mistaken ALL hydro is old, i.e. there is a limited supply. Like off-peak, the "peak" has been getting wider for some time now. Short-sighted considering the current anti-energy trends.
I look for the cost of electricity to be MUCH higher as the cost of fossil fuels (with the notable exception of natural gas) inch up.
Just bringing up another consideration in the "grand scope" of this modest project. |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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NRT.Rob
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| 08/20/2009 10:34 AM |
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well sure morgan, but the beauty of hydronics is the ability to take advantage of any particular low cost situation. Why spend more now to gamble that you might pay less later, when you could save the entire cost of your installation before the time comes to switch?
I don't think electric is the right choice for this poster, the gas tank heater wins for him, or mod/con if you are less generous with some assumptions. But there are many cases across this fair land of ours where that is not true. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 08/20/2009 10:44 AM |
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| You will never get an argument on that point from these quarters (I am a business person). But I refer you to my value-added point above and rest my case:). |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Blueridge company
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| 08/20/2009 11:24 AM |
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I still have to chime in, @ .06 per KW electric is cheep. If this is the case the fellow on this project may belong to some small hydro co-op, we see those. If that is so his rates will likely stay well below national average for fuel. .06 kw indicates a co-op of some sort. Our best price in Washington is about .07-.09 next to the dams that give special consideration to pricing for the host county citizens. Normally here it is .11 kw and still regarded as inexpensive.
Dan |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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kicker_92
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| 08/21/2009 12:20 AM |
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Thanks for the input. Nothing special here about our electrical rates, thats standard for most of British Columbia, Canada. (Industrial is a bit higher) It's all Hydro powered, with a new dam being proposed to handle the increasing demand.
Wouldn't most modulating boilers basically a proportional device, or is there logic to integrate the response curve?
We're lucky here to have low untility rates, but parts and install are expensive. This is a DIY project (the whole design and build), so that cut's out the labor cost to install any options. The part that I get concerned about with the more complex systems is the total material costs. Those little fittings, valves, and adapters really add up. |
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baron
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| 08/25/2009 8:02 PM |
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Now that I have a captive audience and am convinced that a mod con is the right choice for my 50k btu radiant project I am concerned about the maintainence factor. I have read that these units whether wall mount or whatever require service. Can anyone tell me what to expect in this regard and how often and what might be necessary? I am mechanically inclined so I would be doing the work myself. My unit would be a LPG fired wall hung (Lochinivar) probably.
thanks baron
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NRT.Rob
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| 08/25/2009 8:34 PM |
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that is part of the reason we prefer prestige solo boilers. reduced maintenance requirements compared to most mod/cons. it is "self cleaning" which really means it rarely needs cleaning and when it does, it doesn't need much.
Typically you would need a cleaning yearly. this is not a fun task on many boilers. dunno about the lochinvar though. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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