mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 09 Jan 2009 12:58 AM |
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We built this house in 2003, installed a Maytag 12 SEER air source heat pump with matching electric furnace/air handler inside. Every year since then the heat pump becomes unbearably noisy. As with the Maytag warranty, they have replaced it each time - it took some convincing with the 4th replacement, but they did replace it with a new one each time. We are on the 4th heat pump!!! - it is now the new and improved Maytag 2008 model. It is failing again!!!!
We are tired of having to go through this every year, not to mention the distributor/installers are not too happy to have our calls come. We are trying to figure out what could be causing this. We live on Vancouver Island and the temperature may go just below 0 for a total of 2 weeks a year, if that. Any insight on what would cause the heat pumps to fail every year?
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gregj
 Basic Member
 Posts:326
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| 09 Jan 2009 02:36 AM |
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What is the nature of the noise, where is it occuring and what did the contractor say is failing? |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 09 Jan 2009 08:46 AM |
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Hard to diagnose over internet. Possibilities include:
1) no crank case heater - cold weather causes liquid refrigerant to accumulate in compressor and slugs it upon start up - that's noisy
2) way undersized inside coil or way low airflow - could slug compressor during summer and subject it to high pressure during winter. Does the unit ever ice up in summer?
3) way overcharged - but I can't see that happening 3-4 times in a row.
I'm not really confident that any of the above is your root cause.
Somebody other than the current installer needs to diagnose cause of these failures. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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tuffluckdriller
 Advanced Member
 Posts:630

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| 10 Jan 2009 12:48 PM |
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Where are you located, and what is the temp. outside when it starts failing? |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:02 PM |
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The problem is clearly related to either the installer, or something else not being changed ,expansion device , to much oil in the lineset so on I've installed a enough Maytags to say they are not without 1/500 to 1/1000 defects , but I must say 4 units with a factory defect being installed by a single company period would be odd. I'm kinda impressed Maytag has sent out 4 brand new condensers. Find a new company . |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:16 PM |
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gregj, good questions, to me the sound is a deep buzz and is naturally in the 60hz area. When you are standing at the unit it definitely has a nice quite fan / air noise with an underlying buzz, when you go inside the living room where the heatpump is closest to, the buzz is resonating and is clearly louder. Also, being outside with it the area is a lot more open so may be offering an illusion of not being as loud as inside.
The contractor in the past has called various reasons. He accused me of: -not cleaning the filters frequently enough -altering his floor grills -altering his cold air return grill (I had a hardwood installer in and he gave me flush mount wood, where the contractor had placed pvc ones in.) -first he replaced the heat pump saying the compressor was "gone" -the second time he replaced the heat pump he also replaced the digital thermostat inside the home prior to, with no effect. He also came out with a"Maytag Rep" that I never met, unfortunately. This fellow apparently ok'd the installation. Including all vents. -the third time he replaced the heat pump the status was "I don't know what is going on with this thing, you and one other are the only ones we are having difficulty with" He has replaced circuit boards in the outdoor unit, he has charged and recharged the unit. He has claimed that a solenoid was fried and thus the compressor was gone.
This last time, I was informed that we are getting Maytags latest unit and that it is a bit larger than our previous one. I questioned then, the size of the indoor coil. He offered that the new one does have a larger diameter copper line than my original but he would just install a reducer. I mentioned that I was concerned with the nature of our problem, I didn't like any more "restriction" in the line. He said it would be ok and Maytag had approved it. Well, here we are again, with the loud buzzing. |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:26 PM |
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deep buzz ? chattering contactor ? Is the noise 24/7 or only in heating or only defrost You now have a 13 Seer instead of a 12, 12's are illegal now due to there effeciency I could nit pick on mismatching coils and condenser but it sounds like you know that already |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:31 PM |
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Thanks for the response tuffluckdriller. I like your username. We are on Vancouver Island on the West Coast of Canada. We are known for our moderate temp. with at most, a couple of weeks a year below zero. We very rarely get significantly below freezing. The unit was very quiet all spring, summer, and it gradually got noisier through fall and now in our coldest part of winter, I have realized that something has happened once again. A 60Hz buzz resonating into our living room from the outdoor unit which is down one floor and on our concrete patio deck. The fact that this concrete patio is poured right up to the foundation makes me see how this resonating could be happening. Still, I was told prior to the install agreement that these things are amazingly whisper quiet.
If you read some of my other posts, in this thread you may get more info to help with your curiosity. Appreciate your interest. Thanks. |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:42 PM |
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geo fan, interesting about the 12 SEER. I didn't know that, but yesterday I did stumble on the net into a page talking about the R22 refridgerant being banned. This will apparently cause need for me to replace my condenser?? Have you heard that?
Back to the topic at hand. Not 24/7. And it occurs in both modes of operation. My thermostat on the wall will click, followed by the furnace fan coming up, and simultaneously the compressor starts up and my lights dim briefly while this starts. I have wondered if the draw from the heat pump dropping the line voltage like it is could be causing something. When the compressor is up and running the voltage is also back to normal. All told the dimming takes place for about 1 second. At times I will see a bunch of steam rising from the unit indicating to me that it is effectively defrosting. After a defrost cycle, the coils are frost free, and there is a small block of ice around the compressor inside the unit at bottom. I expect this is normal?
The buzzing could be caused by a contactor. I would expect it to sound a bit more clackity, thoughts? This is a definite deep 60hz vibration that is capable of travelling through about anything. We must turn up our television to hear it. |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 10 Jan 2009 04:49 PM |
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engineer, thank you.
1).If this was the case, should the unit become quiet after some operating time?
2.)The unit does not ice up in summer. It cools our large home effectively and condenses a lot of moisture inside the house unit which is then pumped out.
3.)Not sure of the status of charging, these guys have played with that in the past, evidently.
4.)I really like the idea of an outside opinion on my entire installation. I was unsure of the ramifications on my warranty. I suppose I should read the warranty paper a bit closer. I have no faith in the original installer any longer. They have been succesful in getting my warranty replacements through Maytag though. I wouldn't want to put this at risk. This guys is the only Maytag rep in the area. Does this matter? Can I call up a different supplier and still have the good warranty respected? |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 10 Jan 2009 05:30 PM |
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a chattering contactor will be very loud and is caused by insufficient low voltage , any one capable of turning a screw driver should be able to notice
the lights dimming is some what normal a hard start kit wont eliminate this but decrease the time (1 sec to 1/2 roughly) shouldn't cause failure
R-22 phase out wont force you to replace equip , you just wont be able to replace it when it breaks after the phase out a direct drop in is available with R-417 but as of yet no major compressor manufacturer has pledged to continue manufacturering R-22 compressors for use with R-417 systems
a malfunctioning expansion device either in the air handler or in the condenser can make a high pitch squiling noise ( usualy caused by swag from brazing )
Its very likely that the noise is traveling though the lineset which is touching your sheathing/siding/framing and not though the foundation try to move the pipe where it penetrats your house ( carefully ) if that helps wedge a peice of foam between the pipe and the wood ( often the 3/8 is neglected at this point ) |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 10 Jan 2009 10:08 PM |
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I checked the lines and they are transiting into the house fairly freely. In fact, not even caulked or anything. They are loose enough that I can freely wiggle them. They are though, strapped with metal strapping at regular intervals. The larger line is also wrapped in neoprene or rubber. Upon pressing my ear to several items around the area, I definitely hear it in the masonry block chimney that is right at the the heat pumps location. It is a deep yet knocky buzz, and it is resonant at the fireplace / hearth location in the living room. Also, this is the same chimney that travels below the concrete patio the heat pump is on. |
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Eric D
 Basic Member
 Posts:104
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| 10 Jan 2009 10:34 PM |
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Internet trouble shooting always is a challange, but hey, I'll add my thoughts as well. The compressor has rubber mount that will become stiffer as the temp outside drops. This isn't normally a problem, but I believe in your installation you have mentioned the concrete slab it is setting on and this could very well allow the noise to transfer through to the home. You might want to suggest to the installer to place the unit on an isolation pad to see if this reduces the noise.
Regards, |
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| Eric D<br>Southern Michigan |
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mydigitalself
 New Member
 Posts:22
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:11 AM |
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I will definitely try that. Any suggestions for make/model? I do have an hvac supplier in Victoria that is quite high volume. I will endeavour to get one.
Thanks Eric. |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:19 AM |
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These can be cut , 1 guy could lift each corner and slide them under , a full pad would be much more difficult with no more benifit |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:27 AM |
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Vibration annoyingly transferred from these units into the house isn't what is killing them.
Wouldn't a chattering contactor, while certainly possibly responsible for a heckuva lot of noise, die fast of excessive arcing and lend itself to easy replacement without trashing the whole unit? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:40 AM |
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yes , could cause additional problem I imagine never didnt fix it to find out Also I would be very loud by the unit but I wouldnt vibrate the house Slugging would be very loud by the unit as well , and considering heating charge is much more sensitive to over charge this is likely ( even with 3 units ) mode specific noises would be eisier to isolate to much oil in the lines fits , or if the origanal unit burned out and at the very least a flush wasnt done acid could be damaging the compressor
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Farmboy
 Basic Member
 Posts:356
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| 11 Jan 2009 01:59 AM |
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Would it be helpful if the homeowner could use a stethescope to carefully try to locate the origin of the sound, like trouble shooting engine noises? |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 11 Jan 2009 11:47 AM |
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finding the soucre of the noise is key |
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