Kactus Kid
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/05/2008 7:39 AM |
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Tuesday, February 05, 20085:32:02 AM
We are considering ICF as the building material for our new home. We've been researching different manufactuers and have been told various pros and cons of each product. Quad-Lock claims to be the strongest ICF with little chance of blow out on pour. They say Eco-Block is of lower quality, less insulation, weaker block, prone to blow out. Problem is, an Eco-Bloc dealer-builder is less than 10 miles away from our lot. Quad-Lock, 60 some miles, so travel distance figures into building cost.
Anyone have any experience with either of these ICF blocks? Any advice is welcome. Thanks.
Mike |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 02/05/2008 10:41 AM |
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Mike, my opinion of Quad-Lock is not good, suffice it to say.
There are about 70 manufacturers of block in the US, but there are only about 10 that I could carry with a good conscience. Consider Amvic and BuildBlock. |
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CFL-ICF
Registered Users
Posts:61
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| 02/05/2008 11:32 AM |
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we use eco-block exclusively. we do not talk about other companies blocks.
but i will tell you. we dont have problems with blow outs. |
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WolfCandy3x
Registered Users
Posts:56
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| 02/05/2008 12:22 PM |
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Hi all,
The only info you will get out of this thread is personnal opinions. Some like Honda, other will stand by Mazda and
the diehards will go all American GMC lolll.
I used BlueMaxx ( arxx ) and was not impressed, Help on friends house with Nudura and unfording these 8 footers are a pain
plus you always check and recheck that everything is straight because they are foldable.
I got some IzoBest, Amvic, BuildBlocks and Fox blocks delivered at home ( Dave sent those free of charge to me ) and my PERSONNAL
choice for my upcoming house is Fox Blocks. The density of the foam is great, 8" center and a larger nailing/screwing area.
The corners are reinforced, they deliver to canada for a minimal fee and the blocks are the cheapest I've found with the
caracteristic I was looking for. The price is the same for everybody from 1 TL to 3 TL. Pisses me off to see 2$ diff per block because
I'm not a contactor with the other Companies.
Being a DIYer and on a time frame. I eliminated from my list all blocks that needed assembling, unfolding, or in multi pieces(Quad).
Sure you pay a little bit more for shipping but hey... I also eliminated non-reversable forms and any non-straight concrete
forms...
What I mean is, If a fire occures what I will be left with, is full walls of concrete that I can use again. Unlike the polysteel waffle
system which after a fire I doubt that a regular joeDiy'er will be able to salvage.
What I like about the fox blocks is the bevel blocks (no need to add a bevel to a regular block and the T forms that most ICF
Companied will tell you that they are easy to make with 2 regular blocks and a LOT of reinforcement. If your a builder/contactor
with employees with some experience any block would do I guess.
But when you main workforce will be your 2 Hockey teams, family and kids ( teens ) and friends you better put all the
chances on your side and Use the K.I.S.S System....
My opinion..
Francis
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 02/05/2008 9:04 PM |
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Kactus, be careful with the knock-downs. They will make outrageous claims of cheaper shipping along with "oh it only takes 10 seconds to assemble a block" phooey. Anyone that post here that is still using these type of blocks has no idea what they are missing. Its the old Ford and Chevy theory, but take a area where they sell the top ten forms and you will not find ECO or Quad guys left.
Bottom line is nobody here wants to dog a ICF form but the truth is the truth and the sooner these forms along with the other 60 of 70 leave the industry the better the ICF industry will be. As you can imagine many may post this as my opinion but I can send you to many ex-ICF installers of these brands that will laugh at there own stupidity of believing that these where the best forms out there.
Where are you from? And how can the rest of us help point you in the right direction. Sorry for being blunt but the truth may hurt those guys.
Dave
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
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| 02/05/2008 10:22 PM |
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No Dave, don't be sorry. I bid projects regularly and I bid whatever is spec'd in the plans. If it is a "some assembly required' block I bid that form, then give the customer a perspective of another 'block' that is ready assembled with a lower price. This makes eyebrows raise and ask why the difference. When you tell them that you need at least one additional guy on site just to snap ties in that's another $ 600.00 per week plus WC, plus payroll deductions, plus this, plus that just cost you another $ 1500 per week. Only twice in my ICF career have I done assemby required blocks, one because of choice - I wanted to try and see all the fuss, my bad, second time the architect wouldn't allow a switch...their bad.
Every other one the client has come to there senses and seen the light
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 02/05/2008 10:22 PM |
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It's true Dave, the users of older antiquated systems (and even some new systems with marketing savvy to rival the Spice Girls) try to shrug emerging and proven technology off as "preference" like the "ford vs. chevy" theory. In fact, analogies when comparing ICF systems would be better suited to compare load range b tires vs. load range e, or commodore 64 vs. pentium.
There is an undeniable performance difference, take it from an "ex-ICF installer of those other brands"
Kevin |
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WolfCandy3x
Registered Users
Posts:56
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| 02/05/2008 11:05 PM |
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Guys, Guys, Guys...
You're all speaking in tongues here... I think KK needs some hard info. So you don't want to name brands ok..
Than tell him which brand you like and why. Walltech what is the top 10 Icf list ? Maybe it would be a good Idea to actually tell
him or any person reading what is considered an Archaic system.
Just for my own satisfaction was I on the right track in my above post ?
Francis |
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Kactus Kid
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/06/2008 9:35 AM |
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Thanks all for the input. What would be considered an Archaic system? In studying the different IFC's out there over the last two years, I've noticed, what I consider improvements in some of the systyms. I like the idea of molded corner blocks, as having helped construct a house with ICF a few weeks back, it seemed time consuming to have to measure and cut the blocks. Just wondering if some block is denser than other, or are they pretty much the same? They all seem to have + and - features.
I'm in AZ, but plan to build in southern UT in the red rock country. It will be an exchange of cooler winters for the summer heat down here.
Kactus Kid. |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 02/06/2008 10:21 AM |
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Kactus kid, I had similar questions some weeks ago. You might check out a thread I started about which blocks are the best. Many pros contributed and explained why they use the brands they use. I hope this link works, thread is titled "which ICF blocks are the best?"
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/view/topic/forumid/4/postid/28811/Default.aspx |
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irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 02/06/2008 10:10 PM |
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Sorry to speak in tongues.
Thanks Jelly.
As Chris says, Run to the light.
Kevin |
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Kactus Kid
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 02/07/2008 9:24 AM |
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Thank you, all. This has been a great help and learning experience. I checked out http://www.icfmag.com and was able to download their ICF comparison chart as well as other info.
This is a great forum. Keep up the good work. We are trying to get as much hands on as possible before we start our own home this spring. A quote from a good guy in the ICF business; "Better to build your cousin's house before you build your own."
I'm sure we'll have more questions and will be hollering for help again. All info is greatly appreciated.
Kactus Kid |
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icfcontractor
Registered Users
Posts:237
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| 02/07/2008 2:22 PM |
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Kactus,
Try the guys at Utah ICF. He has worked with many different brands and has great customer service.
Dan McCullough
Phone: (801)860-4943
Fax: (801)280-5128
ICF Contractor |
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keysgirl2
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 02/07/2008 6:06 PM |
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I would be happy to give you some good comparisons as we have just (today) completed the 3rd story pour of Quad-Loc, we used Rewards on the 1st floor. We changed for a few reasons, please email me directly as I would prefer not to post my experience and opinion. Our house is unusual in such that it has many columns and beams, we are on the water in the hurricane belt!
The pour today: Concrete $154.00 per yd 4000 psi, just doesnt get any cheaper down here!
They say this is the price we pay for paridise, 87 today!
Kristie
sail528@bellsouth.net |
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Opus
Registered Users
Posts:51
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| 02/07/2008 8:33 PM |
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| I like Amvic and Buildblock. I just poured some Buildblock walls. Buildblock came in much cheaper than Amvic in my area. One wall got an 8 foot lift poured all at once and vibrated with no blowout. I was impressed. |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 02/07/2008 9:21 PM |
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Agree Opus, although for me Amvic is cheaper. Both are good blocks, and I like the manufacturer's reps for each.
BTW keysgirl, 5,000psf 6" concrete here in Seattle is $125, with 30% flyash. 17% flyash is $105.
Organized crime has been buying up all the flyash suppliers around here, just like they bought up the concrete companies in Texas just before the Commanche Peak nuclear plant was announced and a construction boom was starting... WTF? |
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keysgirl2
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 02/07/2008 9:30 PM |
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Opus, how lucky, with Quad-Loc we could not pur no more than 2 - 3 ft for fear of bulges. We got to the point of afraid of vibrating. We are up 30ft. Glad its over! Labor costs are much higher with the Quad-loc, plus we seemed to have a lot of waste?
I cant wait to view Buildblock!
Kristie |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 02/08/2008 8:43 AM |
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Francis: Sorry, I have been off for a while. As to your posts above you have made all the necessary correct choices as to types and styles, but here's where you might find trouble. Take an Amvic or Reward guy who has used allot of ICF brands, he loves these two forms, but struggles slightly with the 2" repeat of the block. Now he stacks Build Block and says wow! All the great features of Amvic and Reward and I get a 1" repeat and some other benefits not found in my preferred brand. Now lets take fox blocks, yes they may mold a good quality product, but they have a 4" repeat pattern (bad news). Prior to Fox coming out Reward and BB went 6" longer with their corner forms (4 tie 2 tie) to offset pushing problems associated with a 3-1 tie corner found in most other brands. Now Fox who had the opportunity to capitalize of this feature goes 4 tie 3 tie, which gets rid of the short corners, and allows the form to reach a close window buck without a small filler, but the 4 tie 3 tie creates a unheard of 8" offset on there corners and straights.
Any good ICF installer that has had a 8" offset in head joints will tell you what is going to happen on the top course at the corners. Big push problem unless you glue, strap or pull tie. Now these are all easily accommodated, but why, when you don't have to deal with these issues in a 4-2 tie corner. The Reward and BB corners have 12" head spacing which is a minimal distance you can get away with, without the use off extra labor. Sure again this is a easily accommodated issue with experienced crews, but for DIY with a hockey team you need a fail-proof system that will not require managing everyone.
And as far as those trucks go, I'm a Ford man! Diesel of coarse.
Dave
P.s. I didn't quite follow the part about Dave (fox) sending you Izo, Am and BB. |
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WolfCandy3x
Registered Users
Posts:56
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| 02/08/2008 9:17 AM |
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Hi Dave,
What I meant was that from the 4 manufacturer, Only Dave sent me a straight and 90o for free... Don't wanna be a pain, but
your explanation on the ties ain't clear to me, I simply dont get what your telling me :S I knoe that you guys are here to educate
and share experience but if you ever have time.. A little drawing of what you mean would be GREATLY appreciated lolll
Francis |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 02/08/2008 9:10 PM |
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Francis, sorry some time's we expect all who are reading to understand that the tie is the web is the stud is the excetera. Yes I'm speaking of the plastic web/stud or tie (ties the two sides together) unfortunately due to regions (again) we all call them something different. After I posted above I said "gee I guess I should have checked Foxs site over again before I made false statements" so I did. I found even worse info, that corner is a 3-2 tie(web) corner creating even more problems than I expected.
Dave |
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