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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/10/2009 8:23 PM |
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| If you are saying that what I have said about Icf then show me something to back it up. Like i said earlier you can't have a real discussion if everyone on the forum is for icf walls. Also that is why I stumbled on this site trying to do research but no where does anyone want to address the potential problems and disadvantages at hand. Please enlighten me, show me I am wrong, don't just tell me I am wrong without a reason to back it up. |
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dmaceld
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 8:44 PM |
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Posted By gncc35 on 08/10/2009 11:40 AM
Are you saying that a house built with icf won't burn down. Maybe i don't understand icf I thought you still used wood for the floors and roof . and shingles. Is the foam used on the Icf fireproof,or smokeproof, which is what normally kills the people in fires not the flame. Isn't wood studs still used for furring?
An ICF house can be gutted by fire, which no one denies. What has been experienced though, is an ICF house is much less likely to be set on fire from something like a wildfire. Wood is used on the inside, but not as furring on the exterior walls. Interior finish is applied directly to the ICF walls. Your questions betray your lack of knowledge of ICF construction.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/10/2009 9:17 PM |
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| so you are telling me the foam isn't flammable, or the foam isn't toxic. also if you put vinyl siding or wood siding on exterior there would be no advantage. also what is the chances of a home burning down by forest fire . vs percentage of homes burning from something on the interior. Has anyone here ever seen foam burn? It makes a very hot fire with pure black toxic smoke. Would you rather your children breathe in smoke from wood or from the black bellow from foam. again please just answer the questions instead of just telling me how stupid I am. These are legitimate questions, and yes I don't know alot about icf, because I was not aware the interior finish goes directly to the foam, so that raises more questions like how do you install the electric without removing some of the foam. and if you do remove the foam do they consider that when figuring r values? |
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ICFconstruction
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Posts:638
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| 08/10/2009 9:32 PM |
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It is my understanding that the EPS in ICFs do not support a flame. I would not want to breathe the smoke from either wood or EPS. I was an insurance adjuster for 15 years and investigated countless fires. Many of which were started and communicated in the wall cavity of wood framing, also fires often started on one side and would burn through. My experiences over those years is why I build ICF structures.
The small amount of insulation that is removed for the electrical runs has a negligible affect on performance. Two of my houses had thermal images taken and the electrical runs and box cut outs were not visible. But if your concerned fill the runs with your foam urethane.
The joints in the ICFs large enough for concrete to come though did show in the thermal imaging. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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dmaceld
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 9:34 PM |
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Posted By gncc35 on 08/10/2009 12:24 PM
I am also wondering what the extra weight of the icf walls do to the footing Do they need to be larger to accomodate the added weight? Also what is the overall wall thickness of an Icf wall. While doing comparisons are they comparing apples to apples?
Extra width to carry the greater weight? Of course. But that's just a fact of construction, not a disadvantage. Wall thickness? Variable. Apples to apples? If you read closely what was has been said above you should get the idea that in order to really have an apples to apples comparison of ICF vs stick built, one has to expend extra effort to make the stick wall as insulated and air tight as the ICF wall.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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hugh jones
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Posts:20
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| 08/10/2009 9:48 PM |
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| I've been building for many years and I will say this-the only way a stick built house will be nearly as efficient is if the owner does it himself and looks at everything. I can guarantee you that the average framing crew doesn't care about gaps and air leakage. Every sub on site is there for one reason--to make money. That means get in and get out. I've been building with wood and icf since the mid-nineties and will say that a poorly poured icf wall is a rarity UNLESS some first time hack or a DIY without proper training do it. Yet there are many framed homes that I have seen that I would literally be afraid to sleep in. Built to code is not built right! I personally have an icf home and bring clients in to see it. This has changed some minds but not all. As a GC I give my clients what they want, yet I still, from a builders point of view, recommend icf first. |
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dmaceld
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 10:11 PM |
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Posted By gncc35 on 08/10/2009 9:17 PM
so you are telling me the foam isn't flammable, or the foam isn't toxic.
Never said that.
also if you put vinyl siding or wood siding on exterior there would be no advantage.
There still is an advantage. Exterior fire against the wall will easily penetrate a wood wall. Not so with ICF because the concrete is a fire barrier. There are reports on this forum of ICF houses burning inside with the exterior remaining in great condition. You're left with standing walls that can often support the rebuilding of the interior. Wood won't provide that.
also what is the chances of a home burning down by forest fire . vs percentage of homes burning from something on the interior.
No idea. In either case there's a good chance ICF will leave you something to work with after, much more so than wood.
Has anyone here ever seen foam burn? It makes a very hot fire with pure black toxic smoke. Would you rather your children breathe in smoke from wood or from the black bellow from foam.
Smoke, from any burning material within a house, kills. In fact gases created from the burning process, not smoke, is what kills most victims of house fires. The gases from a lamp falling over and starting a couch on fire will kill just as quickly regardless of what the house is built of.
again please just answer the questions instead of just telling me how stupid I am. These are legitimate questions, and yes I don't know alot about icf, because I was not aware the interior finish goes directly to the foam, so that raises more questions like how do you install the electric without removing some of the foam. and if you do remove the foam do they consider that when figuring r values?
You did come on rather heavy handed in your comments about most of the posts in this forum sounding more like ads than objective discussions. Had you researched ICFs before posting you would have had many of your questions answered. Then you would have been able to ask solid "What about this?" type of questions, and the reception would have much more friendly.
Ever hear RTFM as the answer in the early days of PC programs when folks would ask questions which they could have answered themselves very easily by doing a little reading? Well, here in this forum we ask new comers to make a reasonable effort to RTFM, "Read the fine messages!"
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/10/2009 10:18 PM |
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| thanks for some real answers, your comment that states one has to expend extra effort does that mean that a stick frame just needs to be built properly or does that actually mean that if you properly construct a stick frame to match a icf that the stick frame cost actually exceeds the cost of icf. |
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dmaceld
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 10:24 PM |
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gncc35,
There have been many discussions, just in the past couple of years, about R values of ICF walls and what effects windows, doors, window and door bucks, electrical wire grooves, etc. have on those R values. Basically the answer is doors and windows matter, a lot, and everything else matters very little. Air leakage, or exchanges, matter a lot in any house construction. That's been discussed a lot also.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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hugh jones
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Posts:20
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| 08/10/2009 10:29 PM |
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| IMO the only stick build that will compare will be a double walled one with either foam insulation or dense pack cellulose. The cost to get this will be more than icf. Even the most meticulously built home (if built with wood) will develop cracks (however small) over time due to the expansion and contraction of the lumber over time. If you will find someone in your area with an icf home, I feel sure they would LOVE to show it off. The best selling feature for icf are those who live in one. Contact a local icf builder and see if they can't help you walk through a couple. |
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dmaceld
Registered Users
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 10:36 PM |
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Posted By gncc35 on 08/10/2009 10:18 PM
thanks for some real answers, your comment that states one has to expend extra effort does that mean that a stick frame just needs to be built properly or does that actually mean that if you properly construct a stick frame to match a icf that the stick frame cost actually exceeds the cost of icf.
Costs around the country vary so much there is no pat answer about this. If you look back through the messages in this forum about cost of construction you won't find any real consensus about how much it costs to build an ICF house, or a comparable frame house.
The only way to know for sure, for your own house plans and locale, is to get contractor cost estimates for both methods of construction. I would hazard a guess though, if the stick contractor is accustomed to sealing all the joints with caulk, and doing whatever else needs to be done to make the stick frame air tight, his cost may be less than a contractor who does ICF part time, and maybe less than an experienced ICF contractor. But I wouldn't bet on it. Add to that the cost of foam insulation in a frame house, and staggered studs to avoid thermal bridges, and the frame house could very well cost more.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/10/2009 10:51 PM |
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| here is another question, for below grade construction, why the hype for icf, what advantages are there over and above cmu or formed walls if icf costs more, as we stated earlier the foam can burn and be toxic, a waterproof barrier cannot be applied directly to the concrete wall, termites can live in the foam, R value to begin with does not play a major roll because the temperature stays only a few degrees different than room temperature and tell me if i am wrong but in warm climates it would be a disadvantage because the cooler temperature of the earth would not transfer as easily into the basement actually increasing cooling costs. also if you are not planning on finishing your basement walls or wanting to wait a few years, how durable is the exposed foam and how hard would it be to clean. strength on basement walls usually only plays a part in basement walls for a couple reasons, one the proper drainage is not used causing hydraulic pressure on the wall, or 2 someone does not use the proper gravel for backfill, or 3 they use a dump truck to dump the backfill directly on the wall. or 4 try to skimp using anything less than a 12" wall thickness. besides I am still not convinced a icf wall with the same overall width outperforms a cmu let alone a formed poured wall, I would like to see actual test results proving this. I know there is published tests comparing unreinforced cmu vs formed walls of equal width, which formed walls won hands down on lateral strength,which is still not a fair comparison, but still actual test results. If there is actually advantages do they outweigh all the unknown factors? |
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kotero
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Posts:3
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| 08/10/2009 11:38 PM |
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Posted By gncc35 on 08/10/2009 10:51 PM
.... also if you are not planning on finishing your basement walls or wanting to wait a few years, how durable is the exposed foam and how hard would it be to clean.
. besides I am still not convinced a icf wall with the same overall width outperforms a cmu let alone a formed poured wall, I would like to see actual test results proving this.
I know there is published tests comparing unreinforced cmu vs formed walls of equal width, which formed walls won hands down on lateral strength,which is still not a fair comparison, but still actual test results. If there is actually advantages do they outweigh all the unknown factors?
you need to sheet rock your foam or they won't issue a certificate of occupancy because exposed foam would be a fire hazard
you can't compare overall widths because the insulation offers zero strength
you need to compare a 12 inch poured wall to a 12 inch core + 5 inches or more for your insulation which would be a 17 inch total wall icf and the strength should be the same as they are both poured walls
same with a 6 inch core or a 8 inch etc.
as you stated above, formed walls won hands down
fwiw
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dmaceld
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Posts:805
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| 08/10/2009 11:39 PM |
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gncc35,
Are you a CMU contractor? It sure is beginning to sound like it, that you are trying hard to find all the reasons you can to argue a CMU wall is the best wall.
Foam cannot be left exposed in a basement. It must be covered by a thermal barrier. For an unfinished basement wall CMU beats ICF there. But, the CMU has to be stacked very nicely with well finished mortar joints, or it can look just plain butt ugly, even with 10 coats of paint!! Unfinished drywall is less ugly, in my opinion.
In a warm climate the cooling aspect of the basement wall may, only may, be a positive consideration for CMU. However, keep in mind that the temperature of the ground outside the wall will closely follow the air temp down to 3 to 5' deep. If you have an 8' basement wall with 2' exposed, then half the wall height will be near the outdoor air temp. The cooling benefit of the lower 4' of wall will probably be more than offset by the heating of the upper 4'.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/11/2009 11:12 AM |
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| no, iam not a cmu contractor. But if I were would that be an issue, I thought this was a green talk forum, not a one way icf promotion forum. So lets talk a little about the green aspect of icf. I will start off by asking a few manufacturing questions about the icf blocks. Where are the raw materials coming from to manufacturer the foam and plastic, what are the raw materials that go into the production process? How are the raw materials processed. Is it all done local, is it done national, or is it from overseas. What happens to the production waste is it recycled or is it put in landfills. One of the msds sheets said it is dangerous to equatic life. How many miles is the product shipped before it reaches its destination. The steel reinforcing used in the wall, is the majority of it from overseas?how much energy is spent manufacturing the steel reinforcing?I know the concrete is considered environmentally friendly, but i am not sure of the rest. Is local people installing icf? all things considered does the potential energy savings (notice I said potential) of the icf outweigh the potential environmental effects of the manufacturing and shipping processes used,enough to consider icf "GREEN"? please no bashing this time . These are legitimate questions and concerns that all potential icf customers should ask before making the largest investment of their life. |
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Alton
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Posts:662
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| 08/11/2009 11:18 AM |
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gncc35,
You show your member type as being 1007. I am just curious what that represents so I can further evaluate the source. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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Donnerwetter
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Posts:89
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| 08/11/2009 12:41 PM |
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Gncc - BOY, you are some piece of work!
Let me at least try to answer some of your questions (gotta go back a few years to 8th grade; 1969).
1.) EPS (Expanded polystyrene - C8H8) ...a by-product in the manufacture of gasoline (naphtha); containing over 98% AIR; used for many purposes (Insulation, packing etc.), lightweight, non-biodegradable, and easely recyelable (No. 6). This may come as a surprise to you...it is even used to insulate Stick built (wood) construction as well as CMU above grade (WOW - go figure) :)
2.) As to ICF construction - and it's ability to withstand natures frequent outbursts; they are many pictures on the forum which are worth more than 1000 words.
I agree with the vast majority on this forum; which have even cared to respond to you....PLEASE OBTAIN AN EDUCATION AND INFORM YOURSELF FIRST!!! |
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gncc35
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Posts:31
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| 08/11/2009 1:30 PM |
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| first off I am not a boy ! Why is everyone on here being so defensive? secondly this still does not answer any of my questions is all you have done is told me how stupid I am. ok you say it is a byproduct of gasoline. Last i heard gasoline is flammable and toxic. What processes are used to manufacturer the product? Is the manufacturing process green? how far are they shipping the product to get to final destination? non biodegradeable normally means bad when talking green! and no it not a suprise to me but also no one is trying to say that when it is used it is a green product. As for its ability to withstand natures frequent outbursts, cmu and formed walls if reinforced properly (just like icf) can withstand equally as well. You want to keep telling that I don't know anything but you cannot provide any significant answers! |
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renangle
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Posts:170
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| 08/11/2009 2:15 PM |
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gncc35,
I don't really see the people here being defensive, I think that it is more venting of frustration to you unwillingness to head anyone's request to do you own due dilligence. Of the websites I have sent you there was one of the advantages and possible disadvantages of ICF, but you haven't referenced it. Essentially, it seems that we are surrounded by someone who keeps asking "why is the sky blue".
Most manufactures of ICF have their polypropylene (look them up) webs made of 100% recycled material. ICF waste on the job is also very minimal when people know what they are doing. That waste can be recycled by several ICF manufactures, I know I can through the one I distribute. Does the CMU provider in your area take back cut or partial CMUs? They can also be recycled through other means. ICFs have been Cradle to Cradle Certified so that should speak for itself (again, look that up too).
How far do they travel to get to their final destination...doesn't that depend on the location of the job? Do all CMU block travel the same distance for the project you are familiar with?
You are right that gas is flammable and toxic, so does that mean the rubber membrane used to waterproof a cmu foundation is flamable and toxic? I thought that rubber is a petrolium based product? Crap, now that you think of it, I have to drive home on gas tires, I hope that they don't explode on me...though on the bright side I will be rid of you then.
ICFs are not flamable, but they do have a smoke spread, if you read the msds sheets (which you didn't). I have never head of an ICF house that has burned down or actually a fatality in one. When a stick frame house has gone on fire, has anyone ever had problems with smoke inhalation? Is the smoke in a frame house considered toxic?
So you are saying that a CMU building is as strong as an ICF structure? You saw the video of that I posted of the 50 lbs of TNT being detonated 20 feet next to an ICF wall and nothing happened (okay some EPS did get blown away). Please post a video as soon as you do the same next to a structure you put up, I look forward to seeing the outcome. We are in the age of terrorism, so I could consider blast proof "nature's furry".
Until you post the video, please just go away. You are really dumbing down this forum and its frustrating for many and really makes you look like a fool. I'm not trying to be mean, but you really look like a fool. Its depressing.
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Donnerwetter
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Posts:89
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| 08/11/2009 3:06 PM |
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...Back when I was a BOY (in the 8th grade); we were given reading assignments; which then were followed by a test or quiz - so our level of understanding concerning the given subject could be established. The term "BOY" was not meant in regard to your age (even though one can not be certain of this - by reading your posts).
Renangle - as well as many others have tried to "Educate" you by referring you to a few web-sites. Maybe they didn't have enough pictures...:) |
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