Howdy all. I'm new to this site, and new to the world of alternative construction. I'm a contractor, a builder, and hopefully in the near future, a homeowner. I've been closely studying SIPs, straw bale and rammed earth construction, etc for about 4 years, and I still can't decide which way to go. Seeing as the most "alternative" thing I've done so far has been to throw up a few post and beam homes, I'm kind of thinkng SIPs are more up my alley.

My next problem however, is which company to use. Of course, I absolutely understand that this is generally a problem for any building packages or what have you, for any type of construction. Regardless, I've been eyeing up the system from Eco-Panels. I have contacted them (along with several of manufacturers) numerous times, and they have been without a doubt the most friendly and supportive group I've worked with. The other thing that impresses me (much like Green Building Talk) is the support of energy efficient homes in general, and not necessarily JUST their product.

I wonder if anybody has had any experiences with them, good or bad? Either way, I'd love to hear about it!

Just for the record, (if this makes any difference)... I was planning on going with 6" walls, polyurethane. It just seems so superior to polystyrene, I don't know how anybody could not want it. I would use SIPs for all exterior walls, though I am undecided about a roofing system as of yet.

I greatly appreciate any comments, support, and ideas!

Matthew: I'm new to this site as well...and no question there are a number of choices on thermal envelopes - I've been in the building materials and construction industry for over 25 years, and supplied manufacturers of, and used ICF's, autoclaved aerated concrete, sticks, and both EPS and PU SIPs...and SIPs are at the top of my list with Eco-Panels right at the top of that list.

PU SIPs aren't for everyone, particularly if all you look at is cost - but there are a number of solid features Eco-Panels' offer that have a payback: PU foam has higher insulating values than EPS, better performance in sustained fires (there's a reason 95 % of European insulated panels sold are PU not EPS) and with E-P their continuously insulated corner panels make for a better envelope than conventional corners. More and more of my clients are digging deep into the total cost of ownership - not just first acquisition costs. Maybe you own a building and know this already, and are looking for more perofrmance and savings than just the cost difference between EPS and PU foam cores for SIPs.

I think the thing that stands out about Eco-Panels, above and beyond what IMO is a superior product, is that they know a great product can fall down becuase of poor customer service. The E-P team all get that. Sure other companies have some nice folks and can deliver a solid SIP product, but the combination of their great product and great customer service is rarer than it should be in our industry. They have some really creative ideas on ways to maximize the strengths of their product...like using other skins - LP's SmartSide product or Huber's ZipWall...they have some strong skills and knowledge that you don't see in the price but will experience as a customer.

where are you building? is this a home you're looking at using SIPs for? are you looking at renewables too?

best of luck, Brian

Brian Strombotne
Pivotal Resource Group
Cary NC
919-796-9983 mobile

Thanks alot for your input, Brian.

I'm building in central Alberta. And yes to both of your other questions!

My main problem is going to be justifying paying the exchange rate, and shipping all the way up here, But I still think it would be a good way to go. I was also looking at polyurethane ICFs, but again, undecided. I don't think I'll know for sure what I'm doing until I've already done it.

Hi Matthew,

I'm just south of you in Calgary and am considering hiring Avalon Master Builders to build a home for me.  They are recommending the Emercor SIP which is also polyurethane.  You many want to consider them as well as they are both local companies.  Msg me if you have any questions about what I've learned so far.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on the relative merits of various PU SIPS.  Is there much to look for in quality differences between various PU SIP manufacturers?

Thanks in advance,
Guy

Matthew: You are definitely going in the right direction by choosing SIPS. Straw bale is incredibly labor intensive, and ICF’s don’t offer enough insulation. I’ve installed both polyurethane and polysytrene, and the polyurethane ones are definitely higher quality, easier to install, and just a better product. I am particularly impressed with Eco-panels for a number of reasons:
1. As mentioned above, their customer service is outstanding.
2. Their panels have corners that are already assembled. On other panels, the corners are the most difficult part to align and attach – if the corners are off, then the whole wall is off.
3. The panels are easy to install. The latch system is brilliant, especially as it gets sealed and insulated, so there is less thermal bridging, and no need to nail it from the outside.
4. They offer panels with the siding already installed. While I haven’t used these yet, I think the savings in labor, and the idea that they arrive weather-proofed will make them competitive with stick-built.

Thanks for the information, everyone.

Guy, I checked out Emercor...haven't actually contacted them, but I wasn't overly impressed with their website. It seems sort of lacking, compared to other SIPs manufacturers. Not saying, of course, that they don't deserve another look.

Gawainm - I have actually built straw bale buildings before, though not in the manner usually used. The buildings I built were simply timberframed, walls built 4' o.c. with small square bales stacked in between. The frame was then sheathed with osb, and stucco went over that. Quite simple to build, but I never have been thrilled over the idea that mice (a huge problem in my area, being that they have no competition from rats) can find a very nice cozy home so easily INSIDE the walls. I certainly thank you for your outlining eco-panels benifits! Also good to know that you prefer PUR SIPs!

Mathew,

I understand your quandry. I've been going through the same thing for years. There is no right answer to your question and an in-depth discussion is more than I have time for here. Let me throw a few quick thoughts at you though.

1. Earthen materials. Alberta is COLD, right? In my opinion, earthen materials like rammed earth are not appropriate for exterior walls in your climate. Most commercial rammed earth systems have integrated rigid foam insulation, but nowhere near enough for your climate. I recommend that you choose a wall system that has excellent insulation against conduction, convection, and radiation on the exterior and then cover it with mass, i.e. earthen materials (cob, earthen blocks, earth plaster) on the interior

2. Straw bales. I love bales. They could be a solution for you. The current "official" R-value for bales is 1.5/inch which makes R-30 a possibility. If you then used thick earthen plasters or compressed earth blocks on the interior, you'd have a good system...providing that you got all the water detailing right.

3. SIPS. The advantages of SIPS are superior insulaiton, low air infiltration, and fast installation. EcoPanels makes an R-40 SIP that, in my opinion, would surpass the thermal resistance of any bale wall you could build. For me the main disadvantage of SIPS is that they are inflexible in the construction process (SIPS geeks will take issue at the statement). As someone with a lot of experience with natural materials, I also still have a problem with wrapping a house in foam. HOWEVER, my company is focused on doing our part to avert global warming. That means carbon neutral construction which means squeezing every bit of efficiency out of our building envelope. We are strongly considering making the switch to SIPS for that reason. If you go with SIPS, I'm convinced that polyurethane is the far superior choice. Your right, also, that the people at EcoPanels are great. They are actually a central reason why I've been open to switching to SIPS. They are knowledgeable, passionate, and helpful. Their factory is also two hours away from our office which makes them a local resource for us.

Hope this helps,

Clarke

Clarke Snell
Think Green Building
Asheville, NC

If choosing SIPS, for an area a cold as yours, a polyurethane foam core is the best choice to achieve the proper R-values you are going to need and still have a practical thickness of panel to build with.

Matthew:

I'm a home energy rater and architect in Western North Carolina and have worked on a few projects that have used the Eco-Panel SIP's. It's a very, very good product in my opinion. I've even had the pleasure of working with their engineer on a few designs I have and have found them to be unbelievably helpful with more efficient layout of windows and roof structure.

The houses we have certified for various green certifications (Energy Star, NC HealthyBuilt Home) that have used the Eco-Panels have done amazingly well. The blower door tests on these have been among the best we have ever tested, in fact.

Their corner panels are pretty unique and resolve a lot of connection issues that you sometimes have with corner applications of traditional flat SIP's. They also seem to be very flexible with exterior sheathing options.

The one thing I would look at more closely is what thickness SIP you decide to use for the exterior walls. The 6" SIP is certainly a great product, but in our temperate climate here in Western NC, when we run the energy models, the 4" SIP for exterior walls can sometimes be a better option for certain houses from a payback perspective. This obviously changes with colder climates (not sure where you are located) and changes in utility rates, but there is definitely a law of diminishing returns on insulation after a certain point depending on those factors. That being said, 6" SIP's are a must for roof and/or floor applications, even in our mild climate.

Bottom line, Eco-Panels is a great option for a polyurethane SIP product from my perspective. Hope this helps.

Matthew Vande, AIA
VandeMusser Design, PLLC
Asheville, NC
www.vandemusser.com

SIPs and ICfs are not the only choices that a builder has, a host of Super Energy Efficient Composite Building Systems are available.

Ergodesk - Are there any products out there that you would specifically reccomend?

If you're not opposed to EPS SIPs we manufacture in Edmonton and would love to give you a tour of our plant?

I really don't know what to say to that...thank you for the offer, most certainly. I don't know if I'm "opposed" to EPS or not. I'm sure they're still a fine product, mainly because they're SIPs, and provide a tighter structure. I just have a really, REALLY hard time using a product that I feel is...uhm...not the best quality I can get.

I would say that our EPS SIP's quality is as top notch as you can get. It's just different than PU if that's what you are comparing it too, and with no chance of any voids. But absolutely happy SIP hunting with which ever system you choose. :)