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PanelCrafters
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| 03/17/2009 6:49 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/17/2009 5:40 AM
...Wood is a thermal conductor, is it not?
No.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Torben
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| 03/17/2009 7:38 AM |
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Any material has some level of conductivity but metal certainly warrants additional steps to account for its extremely high conductivity. See the following article about this from the steel framing alliance about how to compensate for this:
http://store.steelframingalliancestore.com/stvswofrloth2.html
Example conductivities (Btu/(ft hr degF)
Aluminum 144.5
Steel 24.8
Water 0.335
Wood 0.085
Air 0.014 |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 12:28 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 03/17/2009 6:49 AM
[u]Posted By cmkavala on 03/17/2009 5:40 AM[/u]
...Wood is a thermal conductor, is it not?[/quote]
[b]No.[/b]
JC;
If you think not, then why did most OSB SIP mfgs. switch from solid 2x splines to thermally broken splines? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 12:37 PM |
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Torben;
thanks for those values
which do apply to regular steel stud framing, however our steel SIPs have no studs, just a solid foam core.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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PanelCrafters
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| 03/17/2009 12:40 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/17/2009 12:28 PM
JC;
If you think not, then why did most OSB SIP mfgs. switch from solid 2x splines to thermally broken splines?
I don't think, I know. Wood has an R-Value of approximately 1 per inch. Not much, but it's better than a true conductor like Concrete or Steel. The broken splines? Easy, foam is a better insulator than wood. If wood was a conductor, Log Homes would be pretty cold to live in. They aren't, but they just aren't as good as OSB SIPS.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 1:01 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 03/17/2009 12:40 PM
I don't think, I know. Wood has an R-Value of approximately 1 per inch. Not much, but it's better than a true conductor like Concrete or Steel. The broken splines? Easy, foam is a better insulator than wood. If wood was a conductor, Log Homes would be pretty cold to live in. They aren't, but they just aren't as good as OSB SIPS.
JC;
Great we are making some progress now,
our insulated glass windows are an R-4 in 5/8" so you would admit that inch per inch the windows are a better insulator that your solid wood spline? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 1:31 PM |
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Maybe pictures are better
first house with frost on OSB SIP roof with joints showing thru
second house with frost on steel SIP roof no thermal loss?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
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The Sipper
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| 03/17/2009 1:40 PM |
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Ah! An opening to mention a concept that may satisfy many log home lovers, with some advantages over the "real thing" (OSB SIP walls with log siding, both sides of wall if desired, there are many profiles available, even full log corners) And, of course, a SIP roof. (maybe EPS/OSB nailbase over structural T and G decking supported by beams, purlins, rafters, as required)
Log Style Homes for those who want the charm and ambiance of a log home but prefer:
Less maintenance, eg: No settling, no chinking required, little or no checking
Much better energy efficiency
Better utilization of timber resources
Faster, and easier to build
Log siding on the interior of the exterior walls, even on the interior walls, will provide substantial "thermal mass" where that is deemed beneficial. (High country, cold, probably also some stone masonry also which makes this approach even more viable, if one can afford the upfront investment)
Cost? all over the ballpark, with so many "depends" that you'd think you were in a diaper factory.
I know, a "bit" off topic from the original post, since the instigator of this thread did express his concerns regarding costs, but that seems to happen "occasionally" on these forums.
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PanelCrafters
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| 03/17/2009 1:49 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/17/2009 1:01 PM
JC;
Great we are making some progress now,
our insulated glass windows are an R-4 in 5/8" so you would admit that inch per inch the windows are a better insulator that your solid wood spline?
HaHaHa, Funny Guy! The wood is a helluva lot cheaper! Actually, true be told, my manufacturer(as with most any more) doesn't use a solid wood spline...
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 1:52 PM |
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JC;
OK , but your plates and bucks are still solid |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 1:53 PM |
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JC;
any comment on the frost pics? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 1:57 PM |
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Sipper;
Thanks for the segway.............. into Logs over steel SIPs with bare steel SIP roof painted green to match adjacent million dollar log home
for the before pictures click link...Batz Log |
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Chris Kavala
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The Sipper
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| 03/17/2009 2:07 PM |
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Just to clarify, my comments re: "Log Style SIP Homes" were in response to Panelcrafter's post where he mentioned log homes.
Now, as much as I'd like to, I can't pass on CK's comparison of wood to glass as an "energy conductor", There is also a window company offering R-11 glazing, so what? You could use a double layer of that glazing assembly, leave an airspace between the two layers, and depending upon the width of the airspace, you could have R-25 +/-Again, So what? Apples and peanuts!
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 2:12 PM |
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Posted By The Sipper on 03/17/2009 2:07 PM
Just to clarify, my comments re: "Log Style SIP Homes" were in response to Panelcrafter's post where he mentioned log homes.
Now, as much as I'd like to, I can't pass on CK's comparison of wood to glass as an "energy conductor", There is also a window company offering R-11 glazing, so what? You could use a double layer of that glazing assembly, leave an airspace between the two layers, and depending upon the width of the airspace, you could have R-25 +/-Again, So what? Apples and peanuts!
Sipper;
JC quit on me before I could make my point and is the reason I posted the roof picture while wood is an insulator it is also a conductor, not as good as steel, however we have thermally broken channels and OSB SIPs do not
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Chris Kavala
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TerryJ
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| 03/17/2009 2:19 PM |
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Alton,
I do not know of any metal SIP manufacturers in Canada or close to Canadian border.
Anyone?
Terry
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cmkavala
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| 03/17/2009 3:41 PM |
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Terry;
Have you tried Coldmatic? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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ergodesk
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| 03/17/2009 4:18 PM |
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| TerryJ,
Canadians invented Metal Sips, checkout ZEROLOC in British Columbia. The started in around 1960 and are the worlds largest producer. |
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Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air
http://StyroHomeNews.blogspot.com |
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greentree
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| 03/17/2009 7:49 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03/17/2009 1:01 PM
JC;
Great we are making some progress now,
our insulated glass windows are an R-4 in 5/8" so you would admit that inch per inch the windows are a better insulator that your solid wood spline?
CK, what manufacturer are you using getting a .25 u value with a 5/8" pane?
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richntiff
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| 03/17/2009 10:17 PM |
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So... does EVERY thread on this site get hijacked by self serving argumentative doorknobs who have nothing else better to do but post here all day long?
To the original poster - I'm in the plan/design stage of my own home. I am here to sell nothing, push no agenda or product or construction technique. Like you, I'm interested in 'bang for the buck'. The salesmen here will poo poo anything stick built - of course, they want to sell you a product. My search has been narrowed to 2 products for my home's shell. OSB SIP panels or a 2x4 double stud wall with blown in cellulose. Basement will be ICF, should mention that. If you have any doubt about the ability of a framed shell to perform, Google Passivhaus and read for a while on what the Europeans and some Americans are starting to embrace. The performance requirements for these homes are ridiculous, and they are being met with framed construction. A home in Urbana Illinois, the first Passivhaus built in the US, was framed with TJI joists placed vertically acting as studs. I believe it has an OSB skin, blown in cellulose insulation. The SIP and ICF guys will criticize wood framing for how leaky it is compared to their systems - but the Passivhaus air infiltration standard is 0.6 air changes per hour (ACH) - that's pretty darn tight by any standard. You can go around all day about embodied energy and all that stuff - let's face it, to get away from that we'd have to go live in caves. And concrete and foam, well, let's talk embodied energy... My bottom line - ICF is great. SIP is great. Innovative framed construction is great. Run the numbers, plan your house, get quotes, and build as best as you can. Oh - I don't have an insulation quote yet on the double studwall option, but right now my SIP shell, fully erected by an experienced builder, is coming in 10k more than a double studwall fully erected by an experienced modular construction type builder. After insulation, I think the SIP home may be cheaper, or at least very, very close. Oddly enough - I've gotten two SIP quotes - the second was 45k - yes FORTY FIVE THOUSAND dollars more than the first. And both highly recognizable, well thought of panels. My house is a 2300sf single story ranch, gable roof with a couple valleys - very simple construction. Get more than one quote.... |
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Green Sense Builder INC.
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| 03/17/2009 10:34 PM |
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Go with SIPS and by all means go with Insulspan. I built my own home after 3 years of research and went with Insulspan. I have never questioned my decision. It did cost a little more but the time saved in time and labor is far worth it. I have a panel setting crew in Southern Ca. and we have set everything from EZ-Build to R-Control, Ficsher and Insulspan. Our happiest customers have always been Insulspan. One of the biggest problems however is customers believing it builds itself. SIP dealers make it sound as easy as Leggos or Lincoln Logs. It is easier but not Lincoln Log easy. Of all the ones we have set Insulspan is the closest to Lincoln Log easy.
Good Luck and Enjoy |
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