Bore hole depth
Last Post 11 Jan 2009 06:32 AM by waterpirate. 21 Replies.
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geoSteveUser is Offline
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05 Jan 2009 11:34 PM

Anyone know of a reference by geographic location for "feet of vertical bore hole depth per ton of heating/cooling"?  Is it a funtion of soil type?  Water table depth?  I've seen numbers quoted ranging from 125'-225' per ton. 

I'm in southern MN and was planning a 12 hole x 200' bore field for my 12 ton load.  Recently I was thinking of adding another structure to this load which would take my heating needs to ~14 ton.  Any thoughts on the 12 x 200' bore field covering this load (@170'/ton) assuming the heat pumps can cover the 14 ton load?

-=Steve=-



Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 12:23 AM
Steve,

There are many factors that affect bore hole length:

Soil or rock type
Water content
Type of grout
Annual heating and cooling loads
Type of antifreeze
Size of loop pipe
plus a few more that escape me right now.


200' per ton seems to work in most areas. The only way to know for sure is to install a loop and run a Thermal Conductivity Test. This is not really practical for a 12 hole system.

You can either play is safe and go 200' per ton, or cut it close and go to back up heat if you run out of ground heat before the winter is over.

A lot of this is driven by drilling costs. If two more boreholes is going to cost you an extra $5000, you can buy a lot of backup heat for $5000.


If you can give me the BTU load, the soil / rock type, the water content and give me a city and state, I could run a loop design report for you. This would narrow it down some for you.


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
geoSteveUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 08:42 AM
Here is what I know at the moment.

New Ulm (56073) or Layfayette, MN (56054) (I'm in between)
BTU/hr load 168,100 @ -15F design.
Soil type is a heavy moist clay (I don't know the specific water content) with no notable rocks to drill through.
I think you hit water about 150' in my area.

Thanks,
-=Steve=-


RayTyUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 05:25 PM
Steve,

a good starting point is found here
www.geoproinc.com

they have a variety of calculators based on the type of grout you end up choosing.

as you can see the enhanced grouts greatly reduce the total bore hole depth required

Ray


Dean in EdmontonUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 09:49 PM
I have 6 holes at 230' deep.


Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 10:02 PM


Steve,

On the attached loop design reports you will see that for a 12 ton system in your area it is recommended  that you have 4175' of bore hole.

It is the -15° design temp that pushes the loop length way up.

Attachment: GeoSteve1.pdf
Attachment: GeoSteve2.pdf
Attachment: GeoSteve3.pdf

Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
engineerUser is Offline
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06 Jan 2009 10:20 PM
Good looking reports.

I hope it saves yet another client from being short-looped.


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
geoSteveUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 12:52 AM
Dewayne,

I don't think the reference city of Duluth, MN is a valid reference for New Ulm, MN. Northern MN soils are different than Southern MN soils. Ground temperatures in Duluth are ~41F and New Ulm are ~49F.

Can your tool choose a closer city? Mankato? Minneapolis?

Thanks,
-=Steve=-


Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 08:54 AM
Indeed the location makes a big difference.  This demonstrates the  difficulty of offering advice from a far.

Using Minneapolis as the reference city,  (there were only two choices)  the bore length is now 2890'

Attachment: GeoSteve4.pdf
Attachment: GeoSteve5.pdf
Attachment: GeoSteve6.pdf

Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 03:49 PM
If you considered EarthLinked DX, you'd only need one 100' hole per ton, REGARDLESS of the soil type. Earth temp. and soil acidity are the only factors to worry about then.


Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
waterpirateUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 08:02 PM
Posted By RayTy on 01/06/2009 5:25 PM
Steve,

a good starting point is found here
www.geoproinc.com

they have a variety of calculators based on the type of grout you end up choosing.

as you can see the enhanced grouts greatly reduce the total bore hole depth required

Ray


  Yes the math is there to support your claim.  The reality is that if you shorten your loops or reduce the number of bores because you used a thermally enhanced grout you are playing with fire.
  Thermal grouts are an excellant tool to increase the conductivity, but not to reduce footage in unconsolidated material.
 
  The borehole when doing mud rotary work is a variable that you can not control.  The diameter of the hole is not consistant for the length of the bore, nor is the amount of material consumed a constant due to zones of loss.

  The mixing of thermally enhanced grouts is also not an exact science.  The performance data is based on small batches mixed up in a lab under ideal conditions.  This never happens out in the field.  The fact that bentonite is a natural product also comes into play, it is not consistant, just close.  Even with ph adjusted make up water, different lots of bentonite react differently, either hindering or helping it's ability to suspend the sand.
  If it is hindered the published numbers are no good.  If it is enhanced the product will
"flash" and the mixer will cut back on the ratio and it will not match the published numbers.

just my .02
Eric


Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
FarmboyUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 09:00 AM
Thought provoking, Eric! How do you or Can you verify increased conductivity without drilling a control borehole that has non-Thermally Enhanced Grout? Do TE grout makers specify ph for water? For example, if we used our hard well water with a ph of 8.04 (slightly alkaline). I wonder how long the grout maintains it's enhanced conductivity or does it's properties degrade over time. Dave


waterpirateUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 12:32 PM

the only way to compare the two products is in a labratory.  Even in the field you could not drill two control boreholes the same to do a comparison, they might be close, but we are talking about math here.

  The ph of the water you use to mix the product is paramount to a good end product.  Yet the ground water content is also an issue.  All bentonite hates rackish or saline water.  It is also very difficult to grout a borehole that has been thinned with TSP to breakdown clay platlets from the formation.

For those that do not know, bentonite is just clay platlets.

I believe that increasing the solids content of your grout will improve conductivity, but it should never be used to shorten the footage of loop.

Most manufacturers preach a highly alkiline make up water for mixing grout. a 9 or better.  This adjustment is made inthe field using soda ash.  If you run out of soda ash on a job, most times the rest of the days grout is mixed without it, and it's ability to suspend anything is called into question.

Eric



Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
engineerUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 09:41 PM
FWIW my Mcquay map shows ground temp of 48 for south central MN and 46 for far nothern MN - closely matches Dewayne's software


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
PipemajorUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 10:52 AM

I'm just 11.5 miles NE of Minneapolis and drilling for my 4 vertical earth loops started Wednesday.  I have a 4 ton WF dual stage Envision unit going in.  My contractor said he'd need four 185' bores to service our loads.

I spoke to the drilling guy Wednesday evening when I got home.  He said they got into some gravel and water which would help our efficiencies.  They had to cancel drilling Thursday because of cold temperatures but will return today and possibly work Saturday to complete the job.  We have a mass of sub-zero air moving in middle of next week.  Contractor says he can only drill when it's 10ºF or above in the morning.

I posted my design data here a few weeks ago:



Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 11:00 AM
You never answered if you are going to be happy with 68° inside temp in the winter??


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
PipemajorUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 01:05 PM
Posted By geodean on 01/09/2009 11:00 AM
You never answered if you are going to be happy with 68° inside temp in the winter??

That's where we currently have our fossil-fueled beast set during hours of primary occupancy.  When it's at a constant 68º, we're comfortable.  If I bump it up to 69º it feels a bit warm.  Likewise, at 67º it feels a bit cool.  I don't need to act like a Homer Simpson and watch TV wearing only my underwear.

Each bidder sized the same size equipment.  Will we throw things totally out of whack if we do bump up the tstat to 70º?

We tend to use a gas fireplace insert in our family room to augment the temp where everyone spends the majority of their time.  Problem with that is this room gets warmer and our tstat is a half level up (we have a 4-level home) and thinks the entire house is that warm so our furnace doesn't cycle on.  When we retire for the night upstairs, our bedrooms are a tad bit on the cold side.



waterpirateUser is Offline
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09 Jan 2009 06:53 PM
How about some pics of that drilling operation?
Are they doing mud rotary or down hole hammer?
What is the time required to do a bore, set the loop, grout, and move on to the next hole?

I just got my primary machine out of the shop today and will post pics of her next week.
Eric


Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
hedgehogUser is Offline
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10 Jan 2009 11:49 AM
loop tempuratures should give a pretty good indicator of loop performance right? my loop has been getting a pretty good work out lately, been -30 to -40 for a 3 or 4 weeks now. what are some miniumum temps before a loop is struggling? i am pushing 16gpm through a 3-ton, how much temp drop should there be?


waterpirateUser is Offline
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10 Jan 2009 12:33 PM
Hedgehog,

What is your entering loop temprature?

What is your exiting loop temprature?

The entering loop temprature will give you the performance data of your loop field, to correlate to the cut sheet for your specific unit.  I.E.  maximum btu's possible with that temprature coming into unit.

The difference between the incoming temp and the outgoing temp will give you the performance data on how well your unit is extracting btu's.

The national recomendation for a closed loop system is 3 gpm per ton of load.  Some manufactures want less.  If your info is correct at 16gpm, that is a lot.  A condition does exist on paper where you are moving the fluid to fast to extract efficently?
Eric


Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
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