He mentioned August, so my guess is the system was installed in the Summer and he hasn't run it yet during the Heating season.  $711 is a very high cooling bill, I think Mine was $250 for August, for a 3500 sq. ft. house in Atlantic County, NJ.

Closed loop in Burlington County NJ? Frankly I'm very suprised it's not an open loop system. The NJ aquifier water is ideal for Open loops in South Jersey.  With open loops your using the water from a well, with a return well, you have a limitless supply of water.  Who was the Geo installer?

Don't think installers name is important right now and reluctance has been indicated to share it.
Nor is installer necessarily the culprit if we find well driller didn't grout correctly for instance (which is among the possible problems). Other active threads show competent installers victimized with their customers by the equipment malfunction.
Think we need to move forward with what we have.
Joe

Like I said I don't want to name to contractor. If my neighbor does than fine. I'm not trying to start a flame war. I am just trying to help my neighbor. I intend to turn this over to him at some point, but I felt I would be better able to articulate the problem to you guys. Hang in there until I can get the correct tonnage on the unit. For now though, our electric rates are:

Distribution charges
kWh charges: 600 kWh @ $0.051483333
1249 kWh @ $0.055596477

and

Supply charges
BGS Energy
Charges: 135 kWh @ $0.127481481
282 kWh @ $0.137127660
465 kWh @ $0.125290323
967 kWh @ $0.134922441

Please note this is from MY bill which was about $357 for August. I hope it shows the rates.

So, basically, 20 cents per kwh?

Wow!

Thanks E that's what I had I was wondering bout my math. Based on the little info I have annual op cost just jumped to most of 2k. If nat gas is available I don't know how you'd sell one of these. J

Okay, I have more info. The unit is a Carrier 50YDS model (http://www.residential.carrier.com/products/geothermalheatpumps/gt-px-split.shtml) Exact model number is 50YDS409NCP301. I cannot decipher the tonnage; I'm hoping you guys can. To reiterate, so we don't have to go back to the beginning of this thread, the rest of the system is 2 zones, one for each floor of a 1700 sq ft colonial. The house has better than average windows, average air infiltration and insulation. No vaulted ceilings. Heat gain is moderate; one skylight in master bath on second floor. Owners have no complaint about comfort, just the cost to operate. I don't think a manual J was done. The same contractor was ready to install for me without one basing on my previous oil usage.

My neighbor showed me her electric bills. June $500+, July $600+, August $700+. All higher than the same months year over year.

Natural gas IS available and was when they were sold this system, and as a side note, the guy that installed this also sells Carrier gas/hybrid systems. It was one of the quotes he gave me. Previously, we were all on oil. I had gas brought to my house last summer and I am in the process of connecting 2- 95% 2 stage, variable speed fan furnaces. My 2- 2.5 ton A/C units have been working since June, and drastically reduced my bills from last summer. I can't wait to compare my heating bills to my old oil furnaces.

Like I stated earlier, I opened this thread on behalf of my neighbor because I felt I could better articulate their problem, with the hopes that they would have something technical to go back to their contractor with. I thank all who contributed. I am going to send this link to my neighbor.

Bill

NJBilt, those are huge electric bills. The highest bills I got in the peak of winter was $383 (I think) + gas = about $411 and that is before the electrician did rewiring. It made a huge difference in bill which is actually half of what we're paying before the electrician came back to rewire. Our A/C is not on all the time and thanks to our mild summer too. In the winter, we don't turn off the system and it's always the same set of desired temperature and if we do notch it up, it's in the increment of 2 degrees only to avoid the auxilliary heat to kick in. We're in Essex county, NJ.

We we're using heating oil too in the past. 550 gallon underground tank.

Hopefully, your neigbhor's problem will be resolve and know what the problem is.

How does re-wiring the house save any electric?  The only I can thing I can think of that would have any kind of effect is if aluminum wire was replaced with copper wire.  New copper wiring isn't superior to old copper wire, other than they tended to undersize the grounding wire. This wouldn't have any effect on condetivity properties. Increasing the ground wire size was more of a saftey issue. Redistrubituting the load, were you break up overloaded circuits with two or more circuits certainly increase safety, but does nothing to save energy. You'll have to enlighten me exactly how rewiring a house saves any energy.
 

Tech, I am not exactly sure what they did with my system this summer but it surely had enhanced greatly our bills by cutting it in half. One thing I noticed is that:

BEFORE: When our thermostat is off, we can still hear our compressor downstair humming. Not loud, just as loud as a fridge humming.

NOW: When our thermostat is off or there is no call for A/C. I do not hear the compressors. Just green light on. We hear the compressor only
when we turn it on or call to cool our house on a very hot summer days, that's the only time I hear it.

Not too sure about that wiring issue either but I doubt that's going to help my neighbor.

So far, from what I read here, it could be short looped, or not properly grouted. That one is good input. I can see when not conducting would be a problem.

Any other I ideas?

Oh so he re-wired the electronic board on the System, I was under the impression he re-wired your entire house and now your bills are half, my mistake. There could have been something wrong with the wiring where it was kicking on emergency heat all the time or something to that effect.  In that event, I can see where incorrect wiring in the unit would have cost you double what your paying now.

Peoples concerns about under loopage depends on size a 4 or 5 ton as first indicated would be underlooped with 300' of well if that's what is there.
I'm not a carrier dealer so will have to research model # unless someone else knows. Only then can we conclude short loops.
Size is next question and that will require heat loss calc.
Guesses may only complicate things accurate info is best.
Joe

I didn't get too far Googling that Carrier model number. It might be a Carrier GT-PX 4 ton split, in other words a ClimateMonster 2 stage 4 ton split.

National average electric rate is 10 cents / kwh or so. A $700 monthly bill in the OPs high rate area translates to $350-400 most other places. Still very very high - suggesting the unit was running nearly continuously. That's a guess, free and worth every penny, as Joe wrote.

This problem calls for a competent tech onsite. Find one with geo experience.

A 50YDS049 would be a 4 ton unit - looks like a Carrier-rebranded CM Tranquility 27 two-stage split system.
The NCP part means:
N=split system, C=CXM control board, P= cupro-nickle heat exchanger with hwg(desuperheater)

301 means 230v single phase power, current revision level, single unit package
 (see
 http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/ca204.pdf
 and
http://www.commercial.carrier.com/commercial/hvac/product_technical_literature/1,3069,CLI1_DIV12_ETI4906_PRD1184,00.html )

Don't have a clue what the problem is, other than to say that 2x150' wells on a closed loop system for 4 tons sure seems to be a fair bit insufficient. 2 x 150' for an open loop could possibly be realistic. From reading around here, I've picked up that among the key measurements needed are entering and leaving water temp and pressure, flow rate, and entering and leaving air temp - but for a good diagnosis, you need to know these figures during steady-state operations while the problem is occurring, not a couple of months later.

The other key bits of info needed are the expected peak heat gain/heat loss calcs for the house from the contractor - in BTU or tons (to get an idea of how much cooling/heating capacity the house needs), and some idea of how the "high" bills in the summer compare to spring/fall bills for the same house when the AC isn't running (to get an idea about how much of the electric bill is AC).

If the system is really this short-looped, and your neighbour is going to be relying on geo for winter heating, it would be real good to deal with this issue very soon to prevent nasty winter heating bill surprises.

Bill is the model # 049 as jml suspects? That would google better I expect. What is the model of the aircoil or air handler?
OK, a split system with 2 wells that may be only 150' (I notice East of us they dig 300s and 450s). H/O should verify well depth with driller (not heating contractor) as well as grout employed.
This for a 1700SF house......
Yeah okay.
Could be the installer is a real boob or that thread author has well depth wrong and the installer is a 100% loader (both unfortunate, the latter more easily dealt with).
I'd kind of like H/O to start their own thread from the begining.
Since you shopped this guy too Bill, how did his references check out, how many systems has he installed?
Carrier is nearly smug in their insistance of superior product and training of their dealers. In this case I absolutely encourage H/O to take them to task as well.
Joe

I think I wrote the model # down correctly. I didn't think to get the coil and air handler info. I passed this thread along to the home owner and encouraged them to join in. As it stood yesterday, they were going to contact Carrier. I realize we are all speculating here, but I think everyone agrees something is wrong. The installer is a reputable Carrier dealer but is relatively new to GT systems, and he subcontracted the borings. He did another job in our neighborhood on a similar, if not slightly larger home but they seem unwilling to share their bills. I didn't look into references because decided early on I wasn't going with GT, and the only system he was interested in selling me was a single gas furnace and 5 ton AC with Infinity dampening to replace my 2 systems. Call me old school, but I like the redundancy of 2 systems. I said in an earlier post I didn't buy into GT. Actually it's the closed loop I didn't like. I can understand open loop where it's always dealing with the same input temperature (my brother in law has one) but the closed loop argument, that it stores next seasons therms only told me that as the season wears on, efficiency falls off, and my neighbors monthly $100 increase in electric bill seems to bear this out. The installer was out last weekend and told the HO that the ground temperature was 78 degrees, and that she will have a good heating season. To me, that would be little consolation after getting a $700 August bill. It's a little like prepaying my winter heat in August. I question (especially if the loops are too small) how much of that 78 degrees will still be there in November, and how long it will before that runs out and they are on back up. I gave the best information I could based on what the installer told me last summer. I am pretty sure it's 4 tons with 2- 150 foot wells. My quote was for a 5 ton and 3- 150 foot wells. One of the home owner seems to think the house is a little bigger than 1700 sq ft. My best guess is around 2300 including basement, but that bill still doesn't add up because my house is a little around 4000 and my monthly bills averaged $150 less than my neighbors ... and I have a 1.25 HP pool filter running 10 hours a day!! I appreciate all the interest in this and I promise to bookmark this thread and let you know the final resolution, but again, unless the HO joins in it's going to be second hand info. Bill

The think 78 degrees speaks for itself, the system is short looped.  The normal temperature should be somewhere around 55 degrees, while it's true over the cooling season with a closed loop, the ground temperature rises but over 20 degrees? I'd say when they turn on the heat in late October, they will get wonderful performance out of there system, good bills in November, slightly high bills in December and Killer bills in Jan, Feb and March. I predict the system will be on backup heat all the time somewhere around mid to late December. I say they need to drill at least one more 150 foot line, more pipe never hurts you (other then the expense of installation) it adds almost nothing to the cost of operating the system. (when figuring electricity used to pump the water thru the lines)

 

As a comparison my 3 ton unit heats my 1950 sq ft home with a 450 foot closed ground loop. I live in the Albany, NY area. I have solid rock starting apprx 4 feet down. After drilling the well to 450 ft, they estimated that my water level was at ~20-30 feet. They grouted the loop and then it runs apprx 50 feet to my home and through the basement wall. It sounds like 300 feet for a 4 ton system is unrealistic (even with optimal soil conditions).

While I did use some auxillary last winter, the total amount I spent to heat my home was ~ $800 (this includes my aux use) or around 6000 KWhrs. I was told ahead of time that aux will kick on at times so this was not unexpected. Over the summer, my electric bill was never over $60 (but I only cooled the house a handful of times). I pay ~14 cents per KWhr.

Your neighbors numbers are out of whack. I know exactly how much my geo system pulled because I put submeters on it. In addition to being short looped your neighbor might want to check for other reasons why their electric bill is so high. Turn off the geo system and take meter readings from your whole house meter for a day or two... something else might turn up.

And just to put in my 2 cents about closed loop... I am a believer that it works well because of my personal experience.

55 degrees???
I did an impromptu survey of closed loop geo systems in operationfor more than one year this past week.  Data collected was that most systems averaged around 72-76 degree range.  The survey included my own personal system which as some of you know was short machined,  but over looped by 40% industry standard.
  My worst temprature that prompted the survey was from a house that was newly built.  I.E. the construction load was no where near the actual load while it was being finished.  That system saw 84 degrees.
  Remember that this is a heat exchanger and it stores energy, not disapateing imediately one for one.
  As a side note the last conductivity test I performed in August in Milford,DE recorded a deep earth temprature of 59 degrees on a 1 inch loop that was 300' deep, 2 weeks after it had been drilled.

This system may very well be short everything for all we know.  Good data is needed on loop field and units before the speculation begins.

Not trying to pick a fight here, but the temp of your loop field or earth may not be what you think it is.  To steal a line  "without data you?" oh you know the rest.

Eric Sackett
weberwelldrilling.com