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Suggestions for Installing KWH Monitoring Items
Last Post 19 Sep 2011 08:53 PM by a0128958. 21 Replies.
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 14 Nov 2009 12:13 PM |
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It's time for me to finish installing my WattNode units and my current transformers in an NEC (code compliant) manner. It doesn't have to be perfect, but, at least generally so.
I use these to obtain all of the electrical related energy consumption measurements for my GSHP units.
Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge of what needs to be done, or what items I may need to purchase. I do have the skills though, to change / install whatever is needed.
With that said, for those of you that have code compliant electrical installation skills, does anyone have any assistive comments to offer?
I'm particulalrly interested in how Dwayne Dean ('geodean'), and other posters here, do this for their customer installations.
A couple of images are shown below. The first shows my (200 Amp) circuit breaker box with the CTs around the wires. The second shows my WattNode units simply 'nailed to the wall.'
This is all in a garage, so it does not need to look pretty.
The solar PV installation electrician is coming next week to wire up the solar panels, and thus I'd like to get this at least reasonably and cost effectively cleaned up.
Many thanks!
Best regards,
Bill |
Attachment: IMG_1065.jpg
Attachment: IMG_1066.jpg
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 15 Nov 2009 07:35 AM |
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I don't know the codes. I'd say secure the CTs as best you can.
The light guage CT wires should probably leave the panel in their own knockout and conduit, and the hardware external to the panel should be in its own box |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 16 Nov 2009 09:40 AM |
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Curt, thanks.
I finished securing the CTs to the wires being measured with zip ties. I also have all of the CTs' low voltage wiring neatly grouped and exiting the top of the circuit breaker box, going to a recessed box behind the drywall.
The CT low voltage (0.333 V) wires are rated at 600 V to enable them to coexist along side the circuit breaker wiring.
I'm now looking for a box / cabinet, as you suggest. Below is an image of an example. My problem is I don't know where to go to find such a thing. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Best regards,
Bill |
Attachment: pa240029[1b].jpg
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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thaas53
 New Member
 Posts:11
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| 16 Nov 2009 10:14 AM |
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I found these small duty boxes at Home Depot in the electrical department. They were very similar to your picture and cost about $50.
Although I don't know the exact codes, I believe the watt nodes must be installed into a box like your photo due to the exposed line voltage at the screw attachment points.
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craigb93
 New Member
 Posts:47
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| 16 Nov 2009 05:26 PM |
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I just bought one here: http://www.electrical-enclosures.com/
The one in your pic appears to be NEMA 3 or so [Dust Tight] |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 16 Nov 2009 09:19 PM |
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Craig, this is very helpful!
All I need is NEMA 1 - indoor use to provide a degree of protection against incidental contact. I'll call their sales dept. tomorrow to get pricing info.
Many thanks!
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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craigb93
 New Member
 Posts:47
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| 17 Nov 2009 08:32 AM |
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Look carefully and you will see there is an equipment mounting panel inside the box. Order one w/ the box the first time. They are $12 extra. Dick
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 17 Nov 2009 08:41 AM |
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The only thing I can add is the wires should be routed thru a panel knockout with a romex connector installed and not come out of the front of the panel. Once outside of the box, they can run along the wall if needed. I don't beleive there are specific codes in protecting low voltage wiring inside the walls or conduit, but a nice looking install would have the wires run in the walls and to control box. Also those low votage wires should be tucked up agains the sides of the panel and not run across the panel, especially across the main bus bar.
I have a question about the rings you have on the wires, how do they attach to the wiring? Did you have to remove the wires to get them on, or do they clamp on somehow. Also I'm assuming they just sit on the outside of the cable and there's nothing that digs into the cable, where it peices the installation of the cable wire.
I question the value of these monitoring systems when it just monitors the entire house. I see on your install your monitoring a number of other circuits. I think if your monitoring the entire house, your money would be better spent on buying energy saving bulbs and keeping things turned off as much as possible instead of having graphs and pie charts of energy usage to look at on a computer screen. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 17 Nov 2009 04:24 PM |
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Posted By craigb93 on 11/17/2009 8:32 AM ... there is an equipment mounting panel inside the box.
Dick, this is exactly the remaining info I need. I was wondering how I was going to mount the various items inside the box, after purchasing the box.
Many thanks!
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 17 Nov 2009 04:28 PM |
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Posted By thaas53 on 11/16/2009 10:14 AM I found these small duty boxes at Home Depot in the electrical department.
Based on your suggestion, I went to Home Depot, and indeed found the boxes as you stated.
What I learned, after looking at them, is that most are pretty small. And the larger ones are very deep, making them stick out far from the wall. So I'm not sure these are going to meet my need. The suggestion was very much appreciated though!
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 17 Nov 2009 06:41 PM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 11/17/2009 8:41 AM
... the wires should be routed thru a panel knockout with a romex connector installed and not come out of the front of the panel. Once outside of the box, they can run along the wall if needed. I don't beleive there are specific codes in protecting low voltage wiring inside the walls or conduit, but a nice looking install would have the wires run in the walls and to control box. Also those low votage wires should be tucked up agains the sides of the panel and not run across the panel, especially across the main bus bar.
TechGromit, thanks! I've made progress, doing a lot of the the things you suggest above.
Some day I may recess the CTs' low voltage wires behing the drywall, but for now, it will have to be on the outside of the drywall. I don't have the skills to run the low voltage wires horizontally across the wall, behind the drywall, through the wall studs, and in front of the insulation. And I can't lengthen the low voltage wires to first go up to the attic, and then back down to the pulse counter units, all behind the drywall, because the CT wires need to stay at the max length they're at.
Below is a picture of what I believe is now a code compliant circuit breaker box with the CTs around the appropriate wires. And the remaining picture shows the low voltage wiring coming back out from the wall.
Putting the WattNodes into an enclosure is now the focus.
I'll start another reply on the remainder of your comments/questions.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 17 Nov 2009 07:50 PM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 11/17/2009 8:41 AM
... the rings you have on the wires, how do they attach to the wiring?
Did you have to remove the wires to get them on, or do they clamp on somehow.
Also I'm assuming they just sit on the outside of the cable and there's nothing that digs into the cable, where it peices the installation of the cable wire.
I question the value of these monitoring systems when it just monitors the entire house. I see on your install your monitoring a number of other circuits. I think if your monitoring the entire house, your money would be better spent on buying energy saving bulbs and keeping things turned off as much as possible instead of having graphs and pie charts of energy usage to look at on a computer screen. The Current Toroids attach to the wire being measured (power and kWh) simply with a zip tie. See first picture below for an enlargement that shows the zip ties. These two CTs are measuring my GSHP power usage - one for each (3 and 5 ton) unit. Yes, you have to remove the wires to install this particular version of CTs. I say "this particular" because another version of CTs exists, ones that have a removable bridge, enabling installation without first having to disconnet the wire to be measured. The only downside to the removable bridge version is a slight loss of accuracy. Correct, nothing 'digs' into the wires. You're thinking of lower cost kWh monitoring solutions where a single unit clamps around the wires, and pierces the wire's insulation, to obtain current and voltage measurements. In my case, I have to connect the WattNodes to a source of power that's representative, voltage wise, of the voltage of the wire with the CT around it. My monitoring system has been indispensible to affirm energy reduction decisions. See second chart that shows almost a 50% kWh usage reduction since I started working on lowering our usage. The 4 actions I've taken so far (put in a monitoring system, put in geothermal HVAC, replace all incandescents with CFLs, and put in an automated room occupancy sensing system that automatically turns off lights and plug in items when rooms are not occupied) have resulted in the reductions. I'm not bragging about the 50% reduction because we're still a large energy user. 80 kWh/day is still a lot - many here on this forum have pointed out they're far less. But at least we're moving in the right direction. Another key benefit of the monitoring system is that it helps to illustrate what's a good thing to go fix and what might not make much difference. For example, for me, we've got the HVAC bill down to about $50/mo. In this Dallas heat we have, I can feel good about this. Thus, even though the structure has leaky windows, over 50 unsealed recessed light fixtures, poor insulation, spending a lot to fix these things won't pay back nearly as well as other endeavors. The last chart below, from the monitoring system, shows that over half of my kWh usage is still everything plugged in to the house, lighting, electronics, etc - this is prime area to go attack. And the pool itself is one-quarter of my total load. Replacing pool pumps with modern variable speed units will probably have far faster payback than house weather sealing efforts - at least at the moment. Without the monitoring system I'd be just guessing on what to attack. Hope this helps. Best regards, Bill |
Attachment: CurrentToroids.jpg
Attachment: DailyElectricalUsage.jpg
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 17 Nov 2009 08:45 PM |
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It's a nice looking install, I don't think any electrical inspector would give it a second glance. It's good to hear nothing pierces the main cable, nothing should be drawing power between the meter and the main service breaker.
As for all the Graphs, I wouldn't mind knowing the draw my various heating systems and the graphs are neat, but I don't know if I could really justify the cost of the monitoring system. As for saving more energy, I'm going to get a master power switch for each of my televisions, I'm reading that they can account for as much as 10% of an average electrical bill. I'm sure that includes the vampire draw that occurs 24/7.
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 17 Nov 2009 09:55 PM |
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TechGromit, at least get yourself a Kill-A-Watt little unit that tells you how much energy an individual item consumes, like that TV on standby. I don't think they're very expensive, and then you can have more 'fact' to make decisions from.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 18 Nov 2009 05:42 PM |
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To accurately measure AC power draw, you have to continually measure current and voltage. It's not clear if this system does that.
You can't assume a sinusoidal waveform and you can't assume that voltage and current are in phase.
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 18 Nov 2009 06:26 PM |
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Bill, would you tell us what hardware has worked well for you with your "...automated room occupancy sensing system that automatically turns off lights and plug in items when rooms are not occupied..."? Does the hardware have motion or IR based sensors?
We put electronic digital timers on our 2 old CRT TV's since our TV use, like our hot water use, is predictable (maybe we're too predictable!) We found timers that are rated for 15 amps (not 13) and ones that have a ground plug where the timer plugs into the wall and where the appliance plugs into the timer. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 18 Nov 2009 07:57 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 11/18/2009 5:42 PM To accurately measure AC power draw, you have to continually measure current and voltage. It's not clear if this system does that.
You can't assume a sinusoidal waveform and you can't assume that voltage and current are in phase.
The WattNodes are true RMS AC watt-hour transducers, with an accuracy of 0.5% of the reading over a wide range of power factors and harmonic content.
I suspect the Kill A Watt units are similar, just only usable for one plug in item.
Both continuously measure current and voltage.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 18 Nov 2009 09:24 PM |
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Posted By geome on 11/18/2009 6:26 PM Bill, would you tell us what hardware has worked well for you with your "...automated room occupancy sensing system that automatically turns off lights and plug in items when rooms are not occupied..."? Does the hardware have motion or IR based sensors?
Geome, it's pretty simple for me. I've been using for many years a dedicated processor for home automation functions called HomeVision - take a look at http://www.csi3.com/homevis2.htm . This is the type of unit that does not require a connected computer to operate - it is stand alone. Connected to the HV unit are motion sensors in each room. I'm controlling lights with X10 (I control other things with direct on/off relays, or IR). Some time back I replaced all light switches with X10 controllable switches. The HV unit supports extensive and embedded timers. Programming is something like this: If motion, start a timer for X amount of time (in my case X is 30 min.). Every time there's motion, restart the timer. If the timer 'expires,' send X10 commands (via the power line) to turn off the now unoccupied room's lights and other items plugged in. Nothing fancy - works exceptionally well. It is an 'off the shelf' solution such that no effort is needed to custom make anything. Hope this helps. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 19 Nov 2009 12:55 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 11/17/2009 9:55 PM
TechGromit, at least get yourself a Kill-A-Watt little unit that tells you how much energy an individual item consumes, like that TV on standby. I don't think they're very expensive, and then you can have more 'fact' to make decisions from.
Best regards,
Bill I actually have one, but it's of limited value. It only measures the draw of items plugged into it. I can't measure how much power lighting uses, or other things like the dishwasher, oven, geothermal, etc. |
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 19 Nov 2009 01:21 PM |
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Bill, Thank you for the information on your equipment! |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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