Did the clicking noise go away when you reset the breakers?

the clicking does not go away when I reset the breakers on my new Waterfurnace NDV049A111CTL.

However the clicking does not always have the same cycle time. Sometimes there is about 5 seconds between the clicks, sometimes 30 seconds - and sometimes there is no clicking. The clicking is very faint.

Tomorrow the installer is going to replace the system board. I hope that will resolve the issue. however the weather is temperate in SW Ohio, and may remain so for an extended time. I might not know if the furnace is properly repaired till next winter.

GreenSWOhio

I also have the WF NDV049A111CTR with the Honeywell VisionPro IAQ and DSH which was started up 25 months ago.  The L terminal on my controller is NOT wired up.  I've never experienced a lockout on the unit.  I don't see any indication of a red LED on the VisionPro but the LCD display will indicate whether I'm on HEAT/COOL or AUX HEAT.  I live in the Twin Cities area of MN and typically experience sub-zero weather.  We will use the 10KW aux strip at times but, so far, am very pleased with the unit.

For comparison, just prior to the install with our old 135K BTU NG furnace, my total utility bill (heat, light, DHW) was $460 for Jan 2009.  The most recent Jan 2011 was a colder month than 2 years ago and utility rates are higher today.  My total bill this year was $310.  Two years ago we kept the occupied setting @ 68º and a setback of 64º.  We were frequently chilly in the house.  With the WF, we keep the occupied temp @ 70º and setback of 68º so are MUCH more comfortable.  I'm just completing a full window replacement with triple-pane low-E insul so will track how that helps out.  At least now we can "see" through our windows again...

Only problem area HVAC-related is our Honeywell TruSteam humidifier which just recently started going into a hard fault indication (CALL SVC LED indication).  Called the installer who said ALL of the early TruSteam units are now failing and Honeywell is replacing all under a warranty action.

Air filter is an Aprilaire 5000.  Filter element is replaced annually.

My installer is going to install a Waterfurnace brand thermostat tomorrow when he replaces the system board. He thinks the board is faulty - perhaps b/c of a mistake at the factory. I expect the WF brand thermostat to give better insight into what the WF is doing, and to let me know if there is an alarm.

I find it useful to compare kWHrs used to understand if my new WF is doing a better job than the old WF. And it failed badly during January b/c it was in a fault condition.

Pipedemo mentions setting a "setback of 68º." What is a setback? I don't see anyway to set a Setback on my Honeywell VisionPro IAQ.

Does anyone else use a Waterfurnace brand thermostat? My installed said he did not initially use a WF thermostat b/c he has had problems with them...

Thanks

GreenSWOhio

I can say that any alert capable thermostat won't provide alerts unless it is wired properly to give the alert.

From what I understand, the WF thermostat may provide you with some information regarding the lockout. This may be beneficial to someone who doesn't want to go look at the unit, and only wants to tell the service tech what the alert says over the phone.

That said, I have a Honeywell thermostat with the alert feature (now) properly wired. It tells me when there is a lockout, and no more. However, this is sufficient for me since I can go downstairs and observe the LED's on the door of the unit, and I can safely observe the LED on the comfort alert module. At the thermostat, I just want to know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed since I don't go into the basement twice per day to look at the LED's (anymore!) :-)

P.S.  A setback is when you lower (either manually or programmed) the thermostat set point in heating mode (typically at night or while at work).  I suggest setbacks of no more than 2F due to long recovery times and increased chance for unnecessary engagement of aux heat.  The equivalent in cooling mode would be to slightly raise the set point during unoccupied times.

The installer came as I expected and installed a Waterfurnace branded thermostat (I think the 'stat is made by White Rodgers) it is a TP32W02 model. He installed the wire to the L terminal.

The TP32W02 leaves a bit to be desired - it has dark gray lettering on a dark blue background! Very difficult to read.

But the good news is that it indicates when Stage 1 heating is on, Stage 2 is on, and it indicates Electric Heat package by flashing the Stage 2 indicator.

It also has a Call for Service indicator. I know this works as it was flashing this morning. It went down to 32F last night & my Waterfurnace brand furnace had another Water Flow issue. The Water Flow light on the furnace lower panel was also flashing this morning.

I put another call into my installer. He is at a lost to explain the Water Flow problem. He had me power cycle the furnace & the light is off now. He said Waterfurnace does not save any diagnostic information, he'll have to make some more guesses.

Last time I posted here I said he was going to install a new system board. He brought the system board to the house but did not install it b/c the original board passed all of his tests.

The installer theorized that the external loop had frozen the ground to the pond & had frozen the water in the pond. The exchanger is under 14 feet of water, the surface was not frozen, but the installer thought there could be ice under the surface. I told him I was skeptical about his theory as I expect Ice to float. I actually expect cold water to float away from the loop before it has chance to freeze given that the pond was not frozen.

He also said the internal loop's refrigerant was an ounce or so light and he adjusted it.

I paid more for Waterfurnace brand b/c I expected better quality...

GreenSWOhio

Time for another opinion.
J

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 11 Mar 2011 02:00 PM
The installer came as I expected and installed a Waterfurnace branded thermostat (I think the 'stat is made by White Rodgers) it is a TP32W02 model. He installed the wire to the L terminal.

The TP32W02 leaves a bit to be desired - it has dark gray lettering on a dark blue background! Very difficult to read.

But the good news is that it indicates when Stage 1 heating is on, Stage 2 is on, and it indicates Electric Heat package by flashing the Stage 2 indicator.

It also has a Call for Service indicator. I know this works as it was flashing this morning. It went down to 32F last night & my Waterfurnace brand furnace had another Water Flow issue. The Water Flow light on the furnace lower panel was also flashing this morning.

I put another call into my installer. He is at a lost to explain the Water Flow problem. He had me power cycle the furnace & the light is off now. He said Waterfurnace does not save any diagnostic information, he'll have to make some more guesses.

Last time I posted here I said he was going to install a new system board. He brought the system board to the house but did not install it b/c the original board passed all of his tests.

The installer theorized that the external loop had frozen the ground to the pond & had frozen the water in the pond. The exchanger is under 14 feet of water, the surface was not frozen, but the installer thought there could be ice under the surface. I told him I was skeptical about his theory as I expect Ice to float. I actually expect cold water to float away from the loop before it has chance to freeze given that the pond was not frozen.

He also said the internal loop's refrigerant was an ounce or so light and he adjusted it.

I paid more for Waterfurnace brand b/c I expected better quality...

GreenSWOhio

Before you blame Waterfurnace, have someone else look at your total installation. A loop at 14 feet below the surface would more than likely never freeze.The density of the water at 39F is at its highest value which causes natural currents below the surface of the pond to mix the water temperature. This keeps the water from freezing at the 14 ft depth

Thanks everyone for the comments.

The installer came back. He conferred w/ Waterfurnace folk & they decided that the Flowcenter was pumping water too quickly through the pond loop. The flow center has 2 pumps, one on incoming & one on the outgoing line. His calculations indicated that the water was being pumped at 14 GPM.

He said the Water Flow light comes on when the water exiting the heat exchanger in the furnace is too cold. The Water Flow light indicates that the exiting water temperature is about 15F.

Waterfurnace indicated to him that the loop water is not heating sufficiently. It is being passed thru the pond loop too quickly. It needs to be warmer when it comes into the furnace.

They recommended he disconnect one of the pumps.

He did that. He now calculates the flow to be about 12 GPM.

He ran the furnace on stage 1 & stage 2 for about 2 hours and the Water Flow light did not come back on.

I told him I was skeptical about this explanation. However, if he is working w/ Waterfurnace I don't see that anyone could give better advice. My installer is a very knowledgeable fellow.

If it works, no reason to look further.
I have had experience with lengthy monitoring of loop flows and can tell you the greater the GPM the lower the EWT will tend to be. We have had some lengthy conversations about that here.
Your loops are surrounded by matter that is x degrees. Your EWT starts there, but begins to sink. Once Delta T is high enough, temp will stabilize. The faster the brine passes the source of heat the less influence it (transfer of btu's) the source will convey.
J

Posted By joe.ami on 16 Mar 2011 09:40 AM
The faster the brine passes the source of heat the less influence it (transfer of btu's)
the source will convey.

That's an amazing claim. It's directly contrary to anything/everything you'll find in
any engineering text book, and directly contrary to WF, CM, etc. published specs
for the heat exchangers inside their units. Any theory as to why ground loop HXs
might behave exactly the opposite of other types of heat exchangers?

Yes, lower gpm yields higher delta-T (a.k.a. BTU per gallon) -- but it also yields
less "transfer of btu's" (a.k.a. BTU per hour). Temperature is not heat.

Looby

It is true that the less time loop fluid spends in contact with the loop field tubes by virtue of higher speed through the loop the less heat transfer will occur per unit mass of loop fluid. However this effect is countered by increased mass flow rate through the load side heat exchanger.

In other words, if one pumps 3 gpm vs 1 gpm per ton through identical loop fields and geo units operating under identical conditions, a higher rate of heat transfer will occur even though waterside temp split will drop. Bump flow up to 5 GPM per ton and the heat transfer will be even higher, but diminishing returns and pump power operate to reduce COP at flows much past 3 or so GPM per ton. These flows are for the sake of argument typical of average systems; individual systems will have different optimal flow rates dependent on loop and system geometry and flow / pressure relationships.

I hope we can agree on that and that it helps resolve this issue.

I thought I responded to Looby yesterday.....
Anyway you are correct sir, of course temp and btu's are not automattically interchangeable. A thermistor doesn't measure BTU's however so you could concievably have more BTU's (higher gpm lower temperature) and lock out or less btu's (lower gpm higher temperature) and have the same equipment work better.
I know that doesn't say the same thing, but it better sums my thoughts.
A heat pump can operate at 3GPM/ton with a 20* LWT but not a 10*LWT with 1,000 GPM/ton since the second example presumably has more BTU to offer, perhaps you guys can better explain the importance of temp over heat.
j

Lowering the GPM through the Waterfurnace brand heat pump did not fix the problem.

Waterfurnace heats fine unless it is cold outside.

Here in SW Ohio, it dropped to about 25F Saturday morning. The Waterflow light was blinking in the morning; I power cycled the furnace at the breaker box.

Sunday morning saw 27F, the Waterflow light was blinking & I power cycled again.

Today the outside temperature was 31F, the Waterflow light was blinking & I power cycled a 3rd time.

I contacted the installing company - they told me they are undergoing a merger with another company & will have more news later this week. I am keeping them apprised of what I am doing (watching the light & power cycling the Waterfurnace) so they'll have an accurate history.

The furnace behaves fine for awhile after it is power cycled. At one point the installer thought there was a problem with the system board. He brought a new board to the house, but after running diagnostics on the old board could not find a problem and did not replace the old board. Power cycling does not change the temperature the thermistor is reporting; but it does reset the board. Based on very little knowledge, I suspect the system board is at fault.

This was an expensive investment for me, I think Waterfurnace should help diagnose the problem. But my installer tells me Waterfurnace does not support their equipment - that is up to the installers. My installer is merging with someone else and is not returning phone calls.

GreenSWOhio

Posted By joe.ami on 12 Mar 2011 09:33 AM
Time for another opinion.
J

Small companies rarely "merge" due to solvency or great balance sheets, It's usually a collapse (I've collected a company or two myself). I am convinced my prior suggestion is a good one.
J

Today the outside temperature dropped to 34F, the Waterflow light was blinking & I power cycled a 4th time.

The Waterfurnace equipment, installed in December 2010, works fine for about 18 hours. Then the system needs to be reset.

If it is not reset, the fan runs continuously, the Water Flow light blinks, the Geothermal unit does not run, and when the inside temperature falls below some threshold the backup heat is used.

I did not know this in January and my electric bill was the highest in the 20 years I lived in this house because I only had electric heat. There was no indication of a malfunction on the thermostat and I did not notice the insignificant small red blinking WaterFlow light on the furnace.

Now that I know what to look for, I look every morning. And I am now on a 4 day run.

My installer seemed competent. He worked on my previous Waterfurnace equipment & seemed to know much more than other folk I had in to work on it. He told me it needed to be replaced.

He tried to remedy the problem with the current Waterfurnace Envision, he tried lots of things, but was unsuccessful. He does not know what the problem is, he could not get help from Waterfurnace. Now he is merging w/ someone else.

It seems to me that other folk with Waterfurnace equipment who have complained about high electric bills may have the same problem. Is there a fundamental problem with Waterfurnace equipment?

One more thing - the Water Flow light on the Envision is a red herring. When I reset the Waterfurnace the Water Flow light does not come back on. I continue to suspect the system board.

I suspect the water flow light is not a red herring. It is likely that the water flow is interupted, perhaps by freezing, and when you reset it unit has thawed.
Something like that would be a installer problem not something inherent to WF.
I'm guessing of course based on data before me.
I do not sell WF and have no horse in this race.
It seems to me if the sharpest tech in the outfit can't fix your problem, you need a new outfit.
j

I'd get a thermostat and check if your loop temperature really is dropping to 15F. Check incoming and outgoing when it is cold outside.

This is a new unit - it was installed in December 2010. It replaced a Waterfurnace brand unit installed in 1989.

The loop was not replaced. The installer did pressure checks & temperature checks while the old 1989 Waterfurnace was in place. He concluded that the loop was adequate for the new Waterfurnace Envison.

The flow center was replaced, and a new humidifier was installed.

The outside temperature only dropped to 34F last night. The loop heat exchanger is in a 3/4 acre pond - about 14 feet deep. There is no ice on the surface of the pond. I cannot see that the loop is frozen 14 feet under the surface.

The installer did a check several weeks ago while it was really cold outside. He set the thermostat to 80F and let the unit run for an extended period (maybe an hour). Incoming water was about 32F. The exiting water temperature was around 27F. The only way he could get the water temp down to 15F, where the Water Flow light comes on, was by disconnecting electricity to the two water pumps in the flow center.

Now it is much warmer outside, and the water flow light on the Waterfurnace comes on every morning. When I power cycle the furnace the Water Flow alert is cleared for a bit less than 24 hours, even if it is still cold outside.

I'd like to stick with the original installer. The original installation is not finished as the Waterfurnace has never operated correctly. I can't see why a different company would want to assume the unfinished work of the original company.

I am disappointed that Waterfurnace does not do a better job supporting their customers or their installers. This is a very expensive unit. Presumably they are aware of my problems from discussions with the vendor as well as monitoring this forum. Yet they have nothing to say. Toyota may have told their customers to go back to dealerships when they had problems, but eventually the problems were Toyota's.

Joe, Jon and all - I appreciate your thoughts and advice. I like the idea of getting a thermostat, but don't want to do anything to void my warranty. That is one of the reasons I am posting here and keeping my installer informed about the morning power cycling of the Waterfurnace Envision. I want them to know what I am doing.

Waterfurnace: do you have anything to say? At least tell me if the warranty on the 4 month Waterfurnace Envision will be affected if I insert a thermostat into the receptacle.

GreenSWOhio