GreenSWOhio,

We apologize for not responding earlier. We will be more than happy to look into your concerns. Could you please provide your model and serial numbers, as well as the name of the installing contractor?

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

WaterFurnace

I have an Envision NDV049A111CTL S/N 101103122.

It was installed in December by Geothermal Solutions (a division of Wright Solutions Group Inc.) Lebanon Ohio.

You are welcome to contact me. I will send you my phone number in a private message if I can figure out how to do that.

GreenSWOhio

Posted By GreenSWOhio on 29 Mar 2011 03:24 PM
I will send you my phone number in a private message if I can figure out how to do that. 

The easiest way is to click on the little white envelope (pictured below) just below their name in the left hand margin.

I'll bet a sixpack of fine IPA this is a low / loss of refrigerant charge issue, and possibly another sixpack that one of the Schrader service ports may be to blame.

The thermistor that trips the unit and causes the board to annunciate "low water flow" knows squat about water flow.

It is actually mounted on the refrigerant line leaving the evaporator (water coil in winter). The system infers low water flow from low refrigerant temperature (either 30*F [well water] or 15*F [closed loop with antifreeze]

This is a great design (I mean that, really) in that it neither depends on pricey and finicky water flow sensors, nor does it have to wait for / be ignorant of temperature changes owing to completely stopped water flow. Refrigerant flow is a much more reliable indicator of system operation as well as system temperature conditions.

The Achilles heel of this method is that it will be confounded by low / loss of charge. Those conditions will result in low evaporator leaving refrigerant temperatures EVEN WHILE water loop temps and flows are in bounds. The "water flow" error sends troubleshooters down the wrong path.

I'm a strong advocate of delaying attaching manifold gauges to a system until the last possible moment, particularly in the case of critically-charged package systems. That said, a reading of JUST the low side pressure may be very informative in this situation...don't bother with the high side (and its tendency to fill the hose with liquid refrigerant and oil).

You may read a refrigerant pressure corresponding with a saturation temperature way way below the temperature of the leaving water, and that starved leaving refrigerant line may be chilling its thermistor down to the point of a trip.

Low refrigerant certainly can cause described symptom, but OP just mentioned an hour of uninterupted service. Usually refrigerant trips are quicker.
j

The Waterfurnace did not have a Water Flow alert this morning. The temp only went down to 38F over night.

The Water Flow alert seems to be temperature dependent. It is raised when the temperature goes below the mid 30sF. However, power-cycling the furnace seems to prevent the alert for 20+ hours.

Thanks for the notes,

GreenSWOhio.

GreenSWOhio,

In certain situations where there may be communication issues or a resolution is not able to found over the telephone with our technical support staff, a site visit from our field technician may be needed. If your contractor feels this is the case, please have them submit a site visit request.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Thanks for the response.

My installer is merging with another company and has not returned my phone calls or emails since the Waterflow light started coming on 3/26. Is there anyway for me to proceed without them?

As I said, I am really impressed with their personnel, their personnel are some of your best advocates. But I can't reach the personnel while the company is reorganizing. I don't even know if their very competent people will be employed in the new company.

This is all part of my distress, as the company I hired to install the Waterfurnace Envision is merging and going to resurface as another entity before the work they are doing for me is satisfactorily completed.

GreenSWOhio

My Waterfurnace Envison had a very bad night last night. Unlike the night before where the temperature remained high, last night the temp went down to 29F. That is too cold for the Envison to keep up with.

I called the installer and left another voice mail. On Saturday 3/26 I received an email from the previous owner indicating the company was reorganizing & that I would learn details this week. That is the last I have heard from them. While I was comparing companies, before I purchased, I was impressed that this installer is a "WaterFurnace GeoPro Master Dealer" and promised 24x7 service, with over 60 years experience. They told me then installed 44 Waterfurnace systems in the prior 12 months. The BBB gives them a rating of A-.

I took several measurements throughout the night. Yesterday I got a thermistor thermometer with a stainless steel probe. Waterfurnace did not indicate that I would not void my warranty if I inserted this into the outgoing water port. So I put the probe against the outgoing water's metal pipe, under the insulation. I know this will provide a "relative" temperature indication, but not an accurate report of the outgoing water temperature.

My observations during the night while the outside temperatures were about 29 - 30F:

midnight: Waterfurnace running stage 1, everything normal.

2 a.m. Waterfurnace running stage 1, no alerts.

4:30 a.m. Waterflow alert , Waterfurnace running stage 1, OWT (Outgoing Water Temp) = 57F (the water was sitting in the pipe, perhaps for 2.5 hours, & warming up to room temperature)
- power cycle the furnace, it starts in stage 1
- after 5 minutes the OWT is 35F
- after 10 min the OWT is 38F
- after 15 min OWT = 35F

6 a.m. Waterfurnace running stage 1, no alerts.

7 a.m. Waterfurnace running stage 1, no alerts.

8 a.m.Waterfurnace running stage 1, no alerts.

8:45 a.m. Waterflow alert , Waterfurnace running stage 1, OWT = 37F
- power cycle the furnace, it starts in stage 1


9:00 a.m. Waterflow alert , Waterfurnace running stage 1, OWT = 41F
- power cycle the furnace, it starts in stage 1


9:45 a.m. Waterflow alert , Waterfurnace running stage 1, OWT = 36F
- power down the furnace.

So I am now without heat.

As I work through this I am learning a bit about the Waterfurnace Envision:

1 – the installer’s technicians (before 3/26) told me there is no logging of errors when the Envison has a problem. They say it has a CPU, but no memory.

2 - When the Waterflow alert is raised the Waterfurnace goes into Zombie mode.
-- The pumps seem to stop pumping water through the loop, thus the water sits in the pipe and the water temperature rises.
--The furnace fan continues to blow even though there is no heat being produced. The Envision is smart enough to know there is an alert, and smart enough to stop trying to use the Geothermal unit, but not smart enough to turn the fans off.
-- Eventually the thermostat calls for Aux heat. From this point forward, until the Waterfurnace is power cycled, the Envision only uses Aux heat (electric in my case). This can go on for weeks.
---This is why my electric bill was so high in January. The Waterfurnace Envision was new & I did not yet know that I had to look at the WaterFlow alert light every several hours. There was no alarm on my thermostat. I thought everything was OK. My electric bill corrected that mis-impression.

I need to get this solved. I am working out of my (cold) home office, but that is not going to last.

What I hope will happen is that Waterfurnace Inc will tell me: We are sorry you are having problems with one of our Waterfurnace GeoPro Master Dealers. We will deal with the dealer. In the mean time we do not want you to be without heat because you chose a Waterfurnace Envison and it is performing badly. We will do (fill in the blank) to remedy the situation.

I like stories with happy endings.  Keep us posted but be sure to let us know the happy ending when it does arrive.  I need all the current feedback about WaterFurnace that I can get since most of the time this is the brand my clients install.

I like stories with happy endings also.

However I powered the Waterfurnace Envision back on at 2 p.m.

at 2:45 the Waterfurnace thermostat was indicating Stage 1+2 heating (no blinking 2 digit which implies the thermostat was not calling for Aux heat). However the Call For Service indicator was blinking again.

Now there are 2 alerts flashing on the furnace:
Water Flow
Lo Press/Comp

I powered the Envison down again.

I am still hoping Waterfurnace will contact me. I asked the installer to contact Waterfurnace as WF_Inc suggested above, but the installer has not replied.

GreenSWOhio

Posted By Alton on 31 Mar 2011 02:43 PM
I need all the current feedback about WaterFurnace that I can get since most of the time this is the brand my clients install.

Alton, wouldn't your clients be your best source for feedback, especially if their systems are installed by the same installer (or by one installer in a small group of installers in the area you serve)?  Geothermal forums, where there is a steady flow of customers writing in about their system problems, may not be the best source of feedback since installation quality can vary greatly, and is very important to overall customer satisfaction.  If your area is quite large, it would be interesting to see how customer satisfaction varies with different installers.    Also, geothermal manufacturers who have higher unit sales will most likely have more people writing in with problems.

geome,

All good points.

So far, I have not heard of any complaints my clients have had with their WaterFurnace units or installation.  I have not been required to get involved to get a system repaired so WF probably does not know I exist since the client is the one paying for the unit.  However, when I do see posters to this forum experiencing delays in getting repairs, my interest increases in how well the manufacturer stands behind their product and how well trained the installers are.  Learning about the problems that other people are having and whether WF gets involved is something that will benefit me.  Since the projects that I work on are scattered around in the Southeast, I do not believe that the same installer has been used twice.  Since this is the case and that various models have been used, I have been pleased with WF and the installers.  But that does not mean I will trust that this will always be the case.   

Any (And I DO mean ANY) HVAC tech able to fog a mirror and equipped with a set of guages could measure the low side pressure on this system...that datum would go a long way toward resolving this issue.

I'm glad the WF TM is engaged.

Keep us advised - I'm particularly interested to learn if this turns out to have been a refrigerant leak / low charge situation

GreenSWOhio –

I too live in SW Ohio and had an NVD049A11 (with a WF thermostat) installed last year and fairly soon after installation experienced “water flow fault” issues. Mine was by a different installer and was installed in October. Before contracting with this particular outfit, I consulted the sage advice of the preeminent experts at this site. The key advice I remember was that it was not so much the brand, but the installer. I had narrowed it down to a CM OEM brand sold and installed by a very experienced “traditional HVAC” outfit who had recently done quite a few GSHP installations (60 units) and an outfit that that did only GSHP and had done approximately 120 in the year prior. I went with the latter.

Two months after having the unit installed, we experienced some extremely cold weather. (Like a dummy I did not keep track of the outside temperature. All I remember was that it was very cold.) The water flow fault light turned on and the auxiliary heat went on. I called the installer and they told me to turn off the breakers to the system and then turn them back on for a reset. Two weeks later the same thing happened and I called again and they said to repeat the reset process and initiated a service call. Two days later a technician came out and inspected the equipment and found the freeze prevention limit switch set to open loop when it should have been set to closed loop. The unit faulted when temperatures hit 30 degrees EWT, whereas a closed loop was set for 15 degrees. The technician changed the setting and ever since I have not had a water flow fault. I did not measure the EWT myself, but was told it was 37.7 at the time of the service call.

For the two months we ran auxiliary heat, our electricity bills were extremely high. Since the fix, the bills seem a little more tolerable. I am keeping a journal about my geothermal experiences, and so far the jury is still out. We went from heating oil that was very expensive for about 6 months of the year to electrical bills for December, January and February were much much higher (albeit auxiliary heat) than I expected. Once the water flow fault issues were taken care of, the electrical bills became more reasonable, but still considerably higher than before going geothermal. The installer recommended we keep the variable speed fans set to an “always on” position to keep the air circulating. We keep it set at 68 degrees and are very comfortable. With oil heat the amplitude of the heating cycles was very high. With geothermal the amplitude is much lower and as a result more comfortable.

Don’t know what the difference between vertical loops and pond loops are, but assuming both are sized correctly, they are both “closed”. I read through all of the posts here and did not see anything relating to the freeze prevention limit switch, so I don’t know if my experience is of any help.

Sorry for the long post. To review, if you haven’t already had a technician check the freeze prevention limit switch, it may be worth a try.

Good luck.

Again, thanks for the info. And thanks to WaterFurnace for covering the balance of the work with another installer. I am waiting for him now.

I was out of town over the weekend, I turned the Waterfurnace off before I left.

Returning Monday night, with outside temperatures in the 50s & 60s, I turned the Envision back on. It has not faulted in the 12 hours since.

Buckeye – thanks for the suggestion regarding the Freeze Prevention dip switch setting. I checked it & it is correctly set to Loop.

GreenSWOhio

Hopefully this is the end of the story. I will be confident after I have several nights below 30F and the Water Flow alert does not light on the Waterfurnace.

The short story is that the Maintenance Man (MM) determined there was too much refrigerant in the Geo unit & bled quite a bit off to get the unit in line with recommendations in the installation manual. He is confident, but not positive, that the problem was that the unit was overcharged. If there are more problems then the next suspect will be a faulty expansion valve.

The longer story is...

MM > 12 GPM not optimal; he reconnected the Flow Center pump previously disconnected. Both now have power and calculated flow rate is 15 GPM.

Water temp in is 30.6F; out is 27F. MM > this is perfect. He is sure that the pond loop is fine for my 4 ton unit.

MM disabled Auxillary heat via a dip switch. This prevents the furnace from "escalating" to Aux heat. With this setting Aux heat will only come on if the Geo unit is in a fault condition.

GreenSWOhio

Green,
continue to keep us posted.
If WF stepped up they deserve kudos, and they deserve your accolades.
j