Posted By joe.ami on 15 Mar 2011 01:46 AM
Sorry Bergy, Bard makes a multiposition heat pump.

Joe

I know about the Bard GeoTrio unit.  However, I do not consider assembling three separate cases, refrigerant lines and wiring to be all in one cabinet.  I do like the idea of being able to get through tighter spaces with the unit(s)!

Bergy

Just a note....I'm just a newbie and in Nov2010 I purchased a ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 (not rebranded) from GeothermalDIY/Terrasource at a good price online and installed the entire thing myself (with some help of the wife and kids, as a family project). I did a lot of online research, paid a local contractor to dig 2 -300' trenches and buried the HDPE slinky pipe myself. I did a direct replacement of a 17 year old Air source Heat pump which only required a HVAC friend to make up some transitions Ducts. After completing this project for under $10,500 less the FED & State tax credit of $4,000 I would definitely recommend it to a skilled DIY person. Even the Fusion welding (tools bought from ebay for $250) of the manifolds was not that difficult. I would also recommend going with a non pressurized QT Flow Center for a DIY install. SO YES, a DIY project is possible. Another recommendation is a TED 5002C to monitor your house and GSHP power use so you can watch how the thing is running daily. https://picasaweb.google.com/Pwagner3md/20110205GSHPCompleted#

So, I'm curious about this. Assuming for a moment that you were in a situation where you needed to have the system installed by a contractor, how much would you have paid for it?

Imagine that your old system went South at a bad time and something happened at work that required all your time so that doing it yourself was out of the question. After having done it, how much more do you think it would have been worth to have a contractor come in and do it all?

ICFHybird - I did get two quotes from contractors, they wanted 27K+ and 29K for the replacement. I then did some research and decided I could do what they proposed cheaper and have it the way I wanted it (not the way it was most profitable). After reading from this forum, I wasn’t sure I should trust any contractor, even with selectively good references. I agree with most posts here that it’s not all about the equipment, but with getting the thing installed properly. Short of major surgery, I would try anything DIY before paying someone to do something I could do for myself, even if it ends up costing me more (in tools and materials), just for the knowledge gained on how it all works. If I couldn’t have replaced it myself, due to time issues or deployments, the wife and kids would have made due with a wood burning stove until I returned. I’ve raised them to be independent also.

ICFHybird - Answer to your last part of question, Contractor installed as I did, worth 25K. in my opion. But I learned alot doing it myself and my time is cheap and I enjoyed 95% of the install. Backfilling first foot over slinky in trench by hand wasn't fun. Knowledge gained...priceless

Posted By pwagner3 on 15 Mar 2011 11:36 AM
ICFHybird - Answer to your last part of question, Contractor installed as I did, worth 25K. in my opion. But I learned alot doing it myself and my time is cheap and I enjoyed 95% of the install. Backfilling first foot over slinky in trench by hand wasn't fun. Knowledge gained...priceless

hey, from your posts you sound like we are related

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Just to confirm, the project cost you $14,500 and after the rebates it came to a total of $10,500 out-of-pocket? And what state do you live in?

Actually it was only only about $6K....I added a TED 5000 and inline GPI flow meter and a refractometer that aren't listed below. Live outside Washington DC in Maryland.

Geothermal Heat pump
Climate Master - Tranquility 27 (TTV038AGC01ARKS) $5,886.15
HDPE(SDR11)3/4" pipe -(4)slinky loops of 800' each $1,021.78
HDPE Header manifold's - (2)FPH-SK644K04-GH $58.00
QT Flow Center - QT FC-2-230QFC $726.11
Hose kit - QT Flow Center to GSHP - AC-HK10-FP $172.98
HDPE pipe fittings, adapters, and couplings $236.24
Brass fittings and hose clamps $122.00
Brass hose barb adapters $69.96
Full port brass ball valves and supplies $144.08
Misc supplies - PVC pipe, hose clamps, wire $202.91
Misc supplies - Tstat wire, circuit breakers $150.20
Antifreeze - Inhibited Propylene Glycol (26 Gal) $67.60
Thermomenter probes (10) $33.59
Fusion weld kit $259.95
Fusion weld grip - 3/4" $74.95
Concrete Core bit - 2.25 inch $35.00
Trenching costs (20Sep2010) $600.00
Trenching lawn repairs - Grass seed $122.04
Backfill Top Soil & Reseed (in Spring)
Fabrication of transition Ducts (12Nov2010) $250.00

Total cost $10,233.54

Federal Tax credit - 30 % $3,070.06
MD Geothermal Heat pump Grant $1,500.00

Cost after Tax credits / Grant $5,663.48

Hey pwagner3, did you forget about County incentives?

I got $5000  off my PG Co. property tax spread over 3 years as it's just the Co. portion (not St).
This will be my 3rd year this sept for the tax break.

The $1500 Maryland grant, It's $500 per ton max 3 tons and it took a year to get it.
Also you get a 1099 tax form from the Comptroller of MD as you received "unearned income"  ;)

CH

Still waiting on the MD grant money,and yes it was a 3ton unit, I bug them monthly by email. Calvert County and SMECO don't offer any other incentives that I'm aware of, but it was still worth the price to me. Just a not having the noisy compressor outside is priceless.

Nice cost breakdown. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

Thanks for the guidance guys. The numbers favor gas. I am trying to obtain some info from the Freewatt folks. If it works like their website claims, it may be just the thing to compliment my solar panels. I'll post whatever info I can get on it.

On the DIY question -

I did "DIY" on my heating/cooling system. I'm not a normal customer. I have a BSME in Mechanical Engineering and have spreadsheets and calculations on my entire system. I have much experience fabricating various things. I'm very handy. If I was to pay someone to install my complicated system, in my mind, it'd be $100,000 no question. When you factor in my time developing it and building it, I didn't save a dime. I had 5 months of my own free time last summer installing my creation. I did it to salvage my costs because of mistakes by my previous installer.
Unless you fit that sort of mold or have your own HVAC business, DIY is not really an option on complex systems such as this. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Ok - Here is my final post on this subject. I have gotten quotes for a freewatt system - $35,000 when installed by an authorized contractor here on Long island. As my fellow engineering associate 86turbo has explained, and aas the numbers all indicate, natural gas is what is best for the money. Sorry - I'd love th go geothermal but electric costs are too high here on Long Island (and i DO have solar panels on my house) I have paid the $10,500 and am having a sweet 95% efficient gas system installed to replace that environmental disaster oil burner.
Thanks for all the input folks.

I reached the same conclusion for a LI long distance consult client who also had NG available. We went into it wanting to go geo, but the numbers on LI failed to pan out. Propane or oil would have been far weaker competitors.

Hey Paul,

great job on the heat pump install, and thanks for posting the cost figures. I am strongly considering doing the same as you did - installing the pump myself, and having transitions made for me. Where did you buy the pump from (you mentioned online), and how do you feel support / warantee will be if/when problems arrise? I built a 5000sqft house last year and had well dug for 16gpm, as well as have return line already buried and in utility room. just need to buy pump and make connections.

Nathan in New Brunswick

there is a chap selling climatemaster on ebay. he is in clearfield. pennsyltucky which would save you on shipping if you live in jersey.

pwagner3 - Awesome information! I have been thinking about geothermal for the last year and more recently, I have been thinking about DIY.
I was wondering if you had any info on how the performance is - something like what your yearly utility bills were before and after.
Also, information about where you are located, how deep you dug, etc. (Sorry if I missed some of these from your previous posts.)
I know this is an older thread but I'd appreciate any responses from others as well.
I was quoted a price of $22,000 from a local Geo company. I didn't think that was a horrible price but I think it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost. The also planned on putting the pipe in the ground 1' apart from each other - which from what I've read, seems awful close together...
I also didn't think of including things like grass seed for the 30% tax credit - it makes sense, I just didn't think about that.

Posted By jorge69i on 23 Aug 2013 09:59 AM
I was quoted a price of $22,000 from a local Geo company. I didn't think that was a horrible price but I think it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost.

What is wrong with an almost guaranteed 12.5% ROI? If the company is legit, it is a good deal. Think about what the ROI is when you do it yourself, and it does not work, or works poorly!

".....I was quoted a price of $22,000 from a local Geo company. I didn't think that was a horrible price but I think it would take about 8 years to recoup the cost. The also planned on putting the pipe in the ground 1' apart from each other - which from what I've read, seems awful close together...
I also didn't think of including things like grass seed for the 30% tax credit - it makes sense, I just didn't think about that."

You've read but not comprehended all context. Sometimes pipe in the ground is touching (slinkies), sometimes it is inches apart (vertical, diagonal and horizontal bore), sometimes it is a foot apart, sometimes 4 feet. If the company proposes a 2, 4 or 6 pipe trench that wouldn't be out of the question.
Grass seed likely wouldn't qualify for the tax credit though "ground loops and excavation with backfill to finish grade and re-seed" may.

When I was a lad we were schooled that 10% interest meant our money would double every 8 years (when compounded) and a good investment. Have you better vehicles for your money currently?