RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 04 Nov 2011 09:50 AM |
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I rec'd a quote from another HVAC contractor yesterday and I like the fact that W/F has 10 yr labor/parts warr, but the Honeywell accessories have only 1 yr warr. Does W/F's accessories warr mirror their geothermal unit's 10 yr warr or are they same as Honeywell's 1yr? How does W/F's Intellizone and t.stats stack up against Honeywell w/ respect to ease of installation and use, price, quality and reliability?
Also all three bids differed on the depth and number of closed loops for a 3 ton geothermal heat pump in NW FL, yet they all use the same well digger.
1. 3 x 300'
2. 4 x 300'
3. 3 x 250' |
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SkyHeating
Basic Member
Posts:203
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| 04 Nov 2011 10:32 AM |
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I just answered your question on the other board but you didn't ask the same questions here so..
Parts and accessories are 5 year parts and labor warranty, only the WaterFurnace unit is 10 year parts and labor. The Intellizone panel is the ONLY option for the waterfurnace unit as it requires no bypass, I would not put a honeywell zone panel on any geo unit without a bypass and even with a bypass you may be asking for trouble.
I would personally use Honeywell stats, I prefer them to the WaterFurnace stats which if I remember correctly are rebranded white rogers. I have used their stats on one install and that was the last.
So recap, use waterfurnace unit with intellizone with honeywell thermostats, this is IMHO the best combination and what I use on all my systems, check my youtube for a couple videos in two weeks of installs with this setup. |
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Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 04 Nov 2011 01:48 PM |
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Sky,
Thanks again for both answers.
I am more worried about the zoning system than the t.stats, so i like your idea of combining the best of both brands.
I believe the HVAC contractor specified Honeywell Pro6000 t.stats. Are they decent t.stats? |
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SkyHeating
Basic Member
Posts:203
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| 04 Nov 2011 06:44 PM |
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Decent yes, the right stat for the application no. I would highly recommend the Vision Pro 8000 or Prestige HD IAQ(mostly for looks with a high end system like this). The VP8000 is going to have auto changeover features, air circulation options, 7 day programmable vs the FP6000 which is not auto changeover(meaning you have to manually switch from heating to cooling modes) it will not have a circulate feature for air cleaning, it will be 5/2 so you program Monday-Friday as a block and then Saturday and Sunday as a block. On the installer setup side(protecting your equipment and setup for optimal efficiency) the VP8000 has much more usability, you will probably pay close to $200 per stat to upgrade but it will be well worth it. |
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Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 04 Nov 2011 07:42 PM |
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It sounds like you know your stuff. I have learned the hard way, that it's better off to do it right from the start vs coming back later and retrofitting.
The good thing, is that this geothermal install would qualify for the 30% Federal Energy Tax Credit, so I should get 30% back on t.stats too.
If the zoning is done right with a clean slate, should it be reliable and relatively trouble free or is it going to be a constant head ache? |
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RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 04 Nov 2011 08:12 PM |
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I found the VP8000 on e-bay for $105 w/ no shipping or tax and about $125 on other on-line sources, but there is no telling w/ the HVAC contractor might charge. |
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SkyHeating
Basic Member
Posts:203
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| 05 Nov 2011 12:36 AM |
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Well a contractor is not going to buy a used thermostat with no warranty from ebay and you have to remember there is additional time in installing an 8000 due to the advanced setup, we charge about $175 per stat to upgrade depending on application. It also could be that they are using a focus pro 6000 wireless and will have to run a wire on the 8000 which could cost a lot more in labor/time. |
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Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0626/
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 06 Nov 2011 09:39 AM |
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I completely agree with 95% of Sky's advice...WF + Intellizone + Honeywell
You want a zoning system that allows installer to weight zones. Intellizone does, Honeywell does not. Intellizone also weighs the call - Y2 counts double Y1. Advantage Intellizone.
I won't play the game of installing what I don't sell, but I do recognize the easy availability of price info from Mr. Internet, so I don't wildly mark up such hardware. We do charge appropriately for services, which Mr. Internet does not supply.
My minor difference of opinion is that In multizone systems I supply only one 8000 series stat, typically on the biggest / most central zone. I drop back to the 5k series for smaller zones. I have yet to run into a customer that actually programs programmable stats.
Don't sweat warranty terms on the little stuff like stats. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 06 Nov 2011 10:14 AM |
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Posted By SkyHeating on 04 Nov 2011 10:32 AM
I would not put a honeywell zone panel on any geo unit without a bypass and even with a bypass you may be asking for trouble.
A bypass is not required if you design install correctly. The only zone system you really should avoid is one that wants to operate by timer instead of demand. With geo equipment air flow is important, so design may disable second stage if smaller zones are the only ones calling. j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 06 Nov 2011 10:12 PM |
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Rose might have found an add like this on e-bay. I haven't been on there lately but it looks like companies can now advertise on there. <!--[if gte mso 9]>
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Geothermal-Slinky-HDPE-Pipe-3-4-X-600-rolls-DR11-/250862783743?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 06 Nov 2011 10:14 PM |
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Posted By robinnc on 06 Nov 2011 10:12 PM
Rose might have found an add like this on e-bay. I haven't been on there lately but it looks like companies can now advertise on there.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Geothermal-Slinky-HDPE-Pipe-3-4-X-600-rolls-DR11-/250862783743?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0
Everytime I do a copy and paste it adds junk to the front of it for some reason on here. Copy starting at the 'http'
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RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 06 Nov 2011 10:52 PM |
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I know that most reputable HAVC contractors are not going to buy components on e-bay, as they typically buy from HVAC wholesaler suppliers, but I was merely demonstrating the the low end of the price range of the product, hoping that the low and high ends of the price range are not that far apart. |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 07 Nov 2011 08:56 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 06 Nov 2011 10:14 PM Everytime I do a copy and paste it adds junk to the front of it for some reason on here. Copy starting at the 'http'
Make it a link Ebay |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 07 Nov 2011 01:37 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 06 Nov 2011 09:39 AM
I completely agree with 95% of Sky's advice...WF + Intellizone + Honeywell
You want a zoning system that allows installer to weight zones. Intellizone does, Honeywell does not. Intellizone also weighs the call - Y2 counts double Y1. Advantage Intellizone.
I won't play the game of installing what I don't sell, but I do recognize the easy availability of price info from Mr. Internet, so I don't wildly mark up such hardware. We do charge appropriately for services, which Mr. Internet does not supply.
My minor difference of opinion is that In multizone systems I supply only one 8000 series stat, typically on the biggest / most central zone. I drop back to the 5k series for smaller zones. I have yet to run into a customer that actually programs programmable stats.
Don't sweat warranty terms on the little stuff like stats. I think it's rare to find a residential focused HVAC contractor who has the skills necessary to design a multizone air distribution system properly. At least here in the Dallas area. One who understands the limits of what zoning can accomplish, including understanding how duct sizing may need to be different than with nonzoned systems to stay within range of maximum air velocities and simultaneously satisfy minimum air flow requirements of the evaporator coil. The WF product line generally uses ECM blower motors, thus requiring no-bypass air zoning design. With no air bypass the zoning design has got to be correct to insure long life of the WF equipment. WF's IntelliZone zone controller panel uses a WF proprietary pulse width modulation signal to adjust the ECM's speed. I don't know of any compatible zone controller from a non-WF company (i.e. Honeywell) that can directly 'talk' to this signal. Even at that, the IntelliZone only offers 2 different speed choices at 1st stage, and only 2 different speed choices at 2nd stage. To get the air flow distribution design done correctly, the installer has to understand some complex logic that the IntelliZone presents for up- and down-shifting fan speeds. There are many advanced zoning features now available via non-WF supplied zoning control panels - unfortunately these features are not available with the IntelliZone (i.e. up- or down-shifting as a function of Leaving Air Temp, or duct system pressure). The more zones presented to a single unit, the more complex the air distribution design gets. In single zone situations it gets to be tough to stay under max velocity and min flow requirements. The fact that the whole refrigerant circuit is not variable capacity is a significant limiting factor to implementing variable air delivery. I think this will be changing long term. I have found after 4+ years that the WF supplied, White Rogers' rebranded tstats work fine. I'm not certain the extra cost of the fancy Honeywell tstats is worth the money when used with WF equipment. I'm still looking for the tstat offering that does its temperature control based on both measured temperature and humidity. One that adjusts the upper and lower set points as a function of temperature and RH%. I would think there's cost savings to be gained to have the tstat automatically adjust based on both measured values. For example here in the Dallas area it got particularly dry in the September month. So much so that the cooling set point could be raised a degree or two (less cooling) with no impact to comfort. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 07 Nov 2011 10:09 PM |
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Posted By robinnc on 06 Nov 2011 10:12 PM
Rose might have found an add like this on e-bay. I haven't been on there lately but it looks like companies can now advertise on there.
<!--[if gte mso 9]>
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ebay
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 07 Nov 2011 10:10 PM |
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Posted By robinnc on 07 Nov 2011 10:09 PM
Thanks geodean....I just tried to do it and it didn't work. How do I do this?
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 07 Nov 2011 11:48 PM |
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 See the attachment |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 07 Nov 2011 11:49 PM |
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See the attachment |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 08 Nov 2011 10:02 PM |
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Thanks! |
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RoseRx
New Member
Posts:13
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| 09 Nov 2011 07:44 PM |
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I just rec'd a quote from a W/F Geopro Master Dealer, which seemed pretty good, plus he seemed to know the Intellizone system very well. His parts warr was 10 yrs, but his labor was only 1 yr, yet the paragraph below from W/F states:
Because of the quality we build into every WaterFurnace product, WaterFurnace Worry-Free warranties are among the best you'll find. We're so confident in the reliability of our units, our standard warranty provides you with protection for a minimum of 5 years, and 10 years on our high-end products.
Our program covers all unit parts and any WaterFurnace accessories included as part of the system, including Intellizone systems, thermostats and flow centers. In addition, your WaterFurnace dealer receives a labor allowance to offset labor expenses which may be incurred in the unlikely event of a failure.
We're confident you'll be happy with our standard warranties. But because our customers have varied needs and budgets, we offer several optional warranties that, if selected, can reduce the cost of the system. Discuss the options to determine which warranty best fits your needs.
Note: WaterFurnace accessories are covered for 5 years parts and labor.
Why wouldn't his warranty be the same as what the mfr states? |
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