Posted By docjenser on 26 Jan 2012 04:58 AM

Posted By 037614 on 25 Jan 2012 06:55 PM

Docjenser,................. I wish, more installers aquire your skills, before installing a geo-thermal-system.

What documentation do you provide for your potential customers, before closing the deal?

It is interesting, we used to go out and attach reference lists, and I spend a lot of time showing and explaining systems we built , and people were skeptical about the performance. That has all changed. I have not updated our reference list for a couple years.
3 main things:
1) Many of our systems are streaming life data online with the WELserver, so the performance is ultimately transparent. The living room is at 70F, and the cost for that was $128 in January. with propane it was $600. That pretty much says it all.
2) Multiple builders made our geo systems standard on their new houses, and now build whole developments all geo. That has installed confidence in customers. I don't get question anymore like "Will it heat my house?"
3) Most of our customers are send to us by previous customers who are very pleased about us, who send their friends and neighbors to us. Their questions are already answered. Most do not get competitive bids. They know the costs already (they indeed talk to each other), and they appreciate the extra mile we go for everyone. So they know what to expect, and then you simply fulfill their expectations. And then they go around and tell everyone how happy they are about their system. It is kind of a vicious cycle, and has made it relatively simple for us. We have grown 200%-300% each year for the last 4 years. Only had 1-2 customers which were not happy. One complains about $350 January heat bill, coming off $7000 annual oil bill. Another customer complains bitterly about noise, which comes from ductwork. Velocity is at 400 ft/min, For me it sounds very quite. Her main complain is that it runs too long, and does not give her a rest between cycles. So I really struggle to help them with their expectations.
But everyone else is a very happy camper. Making the customer happy is IMHO the secret to our success.

Posted By 037614 on 01 Feb 2012 08:29 PM

Posted By docjenser on 26 Jan 2012 04:58 AM

Posted By 037614 on 25 Jan 2012 06:55 PM

Docjenser,................. I wish, more installers aquire your skills, before installing a geo-thermal-system.

What documentation do you provide for your potential customers, before closing the deal?

It is interesting, we used to go out and attach reference lists, and I spend a lot of time showing and explaining systems we built , and people were skeptical about the performance. That has all changed. I have not updated our reference list for a couple years.
3 main things:
1) Many of our systems are streaming life data online with the WELserver, so the performance is ultimately transparent. The living room is at 70F, and the cost for that was $128 in January. with propane it was $600. That pretty much says it all.
2) Multiple builders made our geo systems standard on their new houses, and now build whole developments all geo. That has installed confidence in customers. I don't get question anymore like "Will it heat my house?"
3) Most of our customers are send to us by previous customers who are very pleased about us, who send their friends and neighbors to us. Their questions are already answered. Most do not get competitive bids. They know the costs already (they indeed talk to each other), and they appreciate the extra mile we go for everyone. So they know what to expect, and then you simply fulfill their expectations. And then they go around and tell everyone how happy they are about their system. It is kind of a vicious cycle, and has made it relatively simple for us. We have grown 200%-300% each year for the last 4 years. Only had 1-2 customers which were not happy. One complains about $350 January heat bill, coming off $7000 annual oil bill. Another customer complains bitterly about noise, which comes from ductwork. Velocity is at 400 ft/min, For me it sounds very quite. Her main complain is that it runs too long, and does not give her a rest between cycles. So I really struggle to help them with their expectations.
But everyone else is a very happy camper. Making the customer happy is IMHO the secret to our success.

>>>>>>>> Q: What documentation do you provide for your customer, "before closing a deal"? ......... shouldn't there be a cost analysis provided to determine what the actual utility savings are??

HI:
To the owner questioning 'switch in equipment'
A) I f you feel you are within a few hundred bucks;
and supplemental heat is not required much differently than local installs, you then may just keep your Peace of Mind.

'SWITCHED':
Have you jotted down the COMPRESSOR-BtuH of the LABEL/model numbers? One can compare on the COMPRESSOR inside and see IF YOU FEEL that you are getting the same potential... + please note, and pass info to other prospects: IF the Earth-Coupled Loop (ECL, gle) is oversized, above a minimal 32+ degree for E-Star-Compliant Units GT ---all are to be---, it may be just interesting enough, that yours is just fine, for Peace Of Mind.... > At least one can figure more accurately about how much 'more metal' for the buck. Programmable and dip switch settings can quickly be far from ‘ratings’ , as others indicated. If to answer your concern directly, more so, since "RATED PERFORMANCE" big concerns do drop off- 'knowing' your GT Units were to meet Energy Star(tm) things for credits/rebates, if then it is left as DJ says it is agreed: "WHO" is of the greatest importance to installation.

Really liked Joe.Ami 's site: AMI Geothermal "We Dig Comfort" www.amicontracting.com ; and in high regards to responses with Bergy, Dana1, Strategery, etc. all - just very helpful, giving time

GeoThermal CABINETS ~ 35 years:
Galv-Aluminum (looks like just galvanized) boxes that were installed with in 1977-1981, on original TETCO units, look rusty at some corners today, but are holding nicely in stone-damp farm houses basements. (that by the way: Heating only on units for drop-in a return air on any furnace, had COP's of 4.1 then, as any with 55% oversized water and air coils do today like 36,000 BtuH compressors on 5-Ton HX coils) I also trust you were truly told: "the best heat pump equipment available in today’s market " is not a rated unit, particularly, as Arkansas OEM GT units are found in the Federal Reserve Building, and in small homes---
I.E.) If say you needed ONE UNIT -for not just HVAC alone- but also wanted INSTANT HW 100% on-Demand, programmed with POOL or Radiant In-Floor: www.Hydro-Temp.com patented Priority HW in 1981 , builders for WF (past) and 4 others to date; and we have installed 4Synergy(tm) since 2003, with say 12-Ton Water and 10-Ton Air coils on 7.1/2-8-REAL-Tons (inside) Compressor-Tons (Ct)  since 2003 -
OEM statement of Compliant at current COP's is sufficient and receives Energy Star(tm) and all utility co rebates and credits to-date; and field COP's among rated "Highest...in the world" are simply not any higher, all considered annually and in a 10-year period. 

and 'Switched':
If you have any 'hollow-ness' forced air sounds at a register, -that are not created by air moving at less than 7 feet per second, 400 fpm, ( under 5 MPH) ,  then like Dick Sharp of Dayton  and Paul Doty of then 1980-rep ControlAire/CenturyProducts showed us:
Find where you might allow a-next-size-dia-larger piece of insulated flex be right off the trunk feeding your duct branch run to that 'sounding' register for in a U-  or an 'S' shape and go back to you run, if you need more quiet operation.
Today's Var-ECM-II blowers easily handle 25 ft of 6" flex around corners to common registers for a typical 180 sq ft room x 8.1/2ft ceiling. Although some have had problems with inferior flex, the flex used since 1980's here can be found in fine supple condition.

-you can find HVAC-Plumbing Dealers that have their own 'Life-Time' escrow accounts going on well-over 20 years now, in N.E.Ohio,  for all their contracting. Perhaps if it seems right for 'addendum', see what's what for yourself.

so to 'SWITCHED' (thread starter):
 I ask, does a (Size 4.5-to-5.5 real Ct) 56,000 to 64,000 BtuH of compressors   seem too small for 3800 retrofit to 4400 (new) sqft plus 1600 to 2200 basements, respectively,  1/3 walk-outs, uninsulated slab floors...?    
  Those systems are in heating , and down to -5 below zero.
 Interiors drop below 68, as customers 'play' with leaving-supplemental-heat-off; but on 35+ deg coldest average winter loop temps at 3-to-3.3 gpm per compressor ton, and both with On-Demand PRIORITY DHW (domestic hot water), 4-zoned air, and limited to 40,000 BTUh DHW.

About homes heating requirements: Even all-above considered, in NEOhio there are homes under 11 BTUh/sqft without, or just half the basement figured in calcs. Cellulose and Fiberglass hybrids (Poly-Foams, better, but then need more erv, etc)-

Noted:
BTUh for BTUh if 7000 Propane went to 3500 annual GT (HW and Heat 600/ a month) then that is seen with every GT common E-Star, properly installed , ducting sealed, insulated plumbing, etc. – Only lower may be 100% Heat Reclaim with full condensing ON-Demand HW- as loop pumps turn “off” while in A/C + Reclaim. other GBT threads on “55 gal tank radiant” and more GT and Radiant have so much help.

Thanks all !

GBT Index --- of GeoThermal HVAC Mechanicals this can will keep one busy calling--- one can search TECH: GT TYPE: Installer ~ may get a few nice answers to any questions GT/Solar/HVAC Res or Commercial


~~~~~~~

EXHAUSTIVE DETAIL BELOW, my basis:
Any others, rather than absorbing all, feel free to question by a point or sentence, please:
-my remarks are only by my (some) experience:: What is so very interesting to me is how little good HVAC

Former REP 1981, American GeoThermal Distributing, N.E.Ohio, w/ then 27 dealers... (and SOLD “50-deg Systems” Comfort-Aire in 1980, 1st GT on 14 GPM open well 54-deg. ("size-6,today’s" was with a 5-Ton Compressor, 4800 sqft, full basement retrofit, all electric) STILL DUMPING TO DITCH as is acceptable in that Dayton Ohio area, area-using 4% rainfall, - and one finds can wait for recharging in the Hydrologic Cycle - as in NE Ohio certain areas, -is OK. Selling as GT-Sys-Annalist in 1980-1985 - customers were educated about large-to-small heat exchangers on same sized compressors: inefficiencies to better choices, by generally making mechanical detail understandable - then they bought by comparison. -Then as now- not being 'chased after' EVER: Because of more evidence in the choosing process, better choices were made- and because they had a few good questions to 'SPECIFY' what they had thought they were to be getting in a contract. (IGSHPA , RSES HtP, after 6 Manufacturer Certs GT, and 2 Solar, plus several seminars, industrial shows- Chillers to GT Hybrids; and 8 years Plumbing/ Electrical, too; and HVAC since 1976; and Marketing training - to Industrial Process Cooling technical design and implementation. Still Learning from the other 10,000 out there who Design and sell better than the 1.3 million HVAC sellers in America...)

Since with 36 years HVAC personally, started sizing loads and sales then; and troubleshooting for over 120 salespeople, among over 64 dealers of GeoThermal sellers; and personally sold 70+ systems, alone,; and hands on 1600+ training techs and Manufacturers and several 'Leading-GT' Engineers: I write the way I write; I speak the way I speak;
I know only the little leaflet that I know
(Found we only know what we know; but most will comment as they feel -first, then only sometimes get to what they KNOW. Right? Now back to comparative selling!)

JP