I've been posting for a few months now going through all the progress I have made, I printed out Joe's checklist and even went so far as to create a leveling sheet with all the contractors.

Now granted I evaluated around 8 GEO contractors, and the last one came highly recommended by a few people.

I got my last quote, and all was well until I asked if I had aux heat, and if he could share a bin report with me - this is where it took a turn for the bad.

I received an email stating that they were no longer interested in working on the project.

Really? I am not trying to be a PIA, just an educated buyer before the sale... ! Really? not interested because I want to know specifics?



I'm at the point now where I will either go another direction or do GEO myself.


I have a well driller who will do the entire water side of things ( flush, fill, tie into units)

I also have a conventional HVAC who will do all the duct work and run the t-stats.

I can get the units from another source, so they are covered.

The last part of the puzzle is the startup & such. I am not even worried about maintenance or warranty at this point.

Am I completely nuts at this point in trying to go on my own? I've reviewed the O&M Manuals for the units I am in the HVAC Industry ( not geo specific )

Just looking for feedback  - Thanks

I would do it yourself and not look back. Business makes decisions all the time that are good for the business and sometimes the customer is the collatteral damage. If they walked away pre-project look at it as a blessing. We work with homeowners all the time who act as their own general and sub out all the parts. The only caution is that it puts you in the seat to assume all responsability for the projects outcome. If you are o.k. with that, go for it.
Eric

I've paid for my own manual J, and will be working with the HVAC contractor for proper duct sizing, the water side of things is covered, so unless i am missing something I am prepared to take it on.

What happened to the other 7? You might want to go back and solicit a bid from some of them. Some times it just doesn't work out with one contractor or another for whatever reason.

I am with Eric....go for it. We can help you along the way.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Feb 2012 08:13 AM
What happened to the other 7? You might want to go back and solicit a bid from some of them. Some times it just doesn't work out with one contractor or another for whatever reason.

Regarding the other 7 -

I've had various results - Seems to me no one wants to produce a manual J report showing definitive results. It also seems that once I start asking more then general questions the salesmen on larger companies and owners of the smaller once start to loose interest in my project.

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I want to know what I am getting, I also want to make sure the calculations are preformed correctly and to date, no one will produce a manual J ( except for the 3rd party one I paid for ) no one will produce a BIN report showing usage amounts showing my expected run times in all 3 heating stages. and no one will break a thing down price wise from a bottom number.

Frustration is a good word for it at this point.

Contractors will walk away from a percieved high maint. customer. I would never be offended simply by the request for a bin report or questions about auxilliary heat, but I may walk from someone who for instance suggested to me the balance point should be such and such and the auxiliary should never run......

It is possible to do the system yourself with the support you mentioned and it will likely save you money, but I'm not clear on why the other 7 estimates were discarded. You will be on the hook for the lions share of warranties without a geo contractor, make sure you get the ramifications.

but I may walk from someone who for instance suggested to me the balance point should be such and such and the auxiliary should never run......

You'd walk on the mere suggestion?

You wouldn't see it as an opportunity both for educating someone AND to capture a job? Aren't the best customers the ones who take an interest in the job, much like DJV is?

Posted By joe.ami on 06 Feb 2012 09:21 AM
Contractors will walk away from a percieved high maint. customer. I would never be offended simply by the request for a bin report or questions about auxilliary heat, but I may walk from someone who for instance suggested to me the balance point should be such and such and the auxiliary should never run......

It is possible to do the system yourself with the support you mentioned and it will likely save you money, but I'm not clear on why the other 7 estimates were discarded. You will be on the hook for the lions share of warranties without a geo contractor, make sure you get the ramifications.

While I see exactly what you are saying in terms of being a PIA customer, I made it a point never to take this as a learning experience with each contractor.

Never did I express parameters they needed to operate by, but it seems as my questions garnered the response to back off.

I never made suggestions but only asked the questions in order to understand where each contractor was coming from.

Granted there were a few that were not this way, but unfortunately I am unable to get the units that they support.
 

Please correct me if I am wrong here...

"I want to know what I am getting"
"I also want to make sure the calculations are preformed correctly"
"no one will produce a BIN report "
"no one wants to produce a manual J report"
"no one will break a thing down price wise from a bottom number."

You are correct on all counts.

Sometimes, informed buyers have to work extra hard to bring out the best in the contractors. It's unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely that all of the eight are unable to do the work properly, so it might be worth your time to go back and find out what the resistance really is. At long last, you may end up running the job yourself, but in terms of warranty coverage and having someone who can come in and troubleshoot and repair, it is certainly preferable to build a trusted relationship with someone local.

It says "may walk".

A cartoon in a recent American Legion magazine shows a patient on the exam table typing in a wireless, while the doctor comments "can't you wait 'til I leave the room for a cyber second opinion?!"

There are some customers that you can educate and some you can't (you have probably heard the term "know-it-all before), those who can't are ten times as hard to work for. I don't know which DJV is (but I presume the former).

Depending on the contributions you believed here, you would think that a "little more loop" was beneficial in every circumstance, that auxiliary heat is the anti-christ, that staying out of second stage is more efficient, so install a larger unit to avoid it. You also might pick something other than a WF or a Climatemaster as they (likely) have the most complaints here (of course they also have the most praise.....the most units in service....etc.).....I don't see any threads titled "don't buy a Spectrum" but they don't have any significant market share yet.

We have also had folks contribute here that say they wish they'd listened to their contractor (about sizing or what have you). I try to avoid relationships where customers make important design requirements that are contrary to my advice or best practices.
By the same token, why would they want to hire someone who they felt was so unqualified that they had to design the system for them?
j

agreed IFC!


Granted - it took me several months to find a builder on my addition that was willing to work this way as well, as GC's well all over the place - but we are happy now with our selection, they are on the ball and I delayed my build to find the right team members, from the bank representatives to builders to anyone else.

It seems I cannot find a geo contractor to fit into these parameters,

Conventional systems, I found a guy who is willing to make my duct to fit my unit, he proposed a conventional system, produced a manual J, provided cost breakdowns for material, equipment, and labor...etc... I'm half temped to go conventional since he is a pleasure to deal with - hence the reason for this post.

DJV we may have been typing at the same time.

I'm not unwilling to work with folks, again it's the context and thrust of the situation. If I am told "I want a bin report and a balance point of 0 degrees and you have to fit the duct in that 10" X 8" cavity" I'm probably gone.
If you say I want to know my balance point and what to expect from the system in pct of hour operation (bin analysis), no problem as I give that to every prospect.

I've learned with years of blogging that missing inflection and brevity may change the meaning of things. I've also learned that there are those who sieze the oppurtunity to twist meanings or selectively understand.

Many of us try to help learn and educate here. One of the important lessons is to hire a real pro and let the rest take care of itself.

If conventional guy is your best choice then see if he wants to take on geo.
j

He already told me no...lol He said he had a bad experience trying to help someone out and he was done with it.


Joe - here is my email correspondence with my last contractor.

XYZ - After a quick review of your proposal I've got a few questions:

1 - Will there be any supplemental electric heat ?
1a - if there is how often will it be used?

2 - Can you provide a bin data report?

3 - Can you provide a balance point calculation ?

Thanks for your time and the proposal.

Dave

This was his responce :

Dave,

At this current time with the work load we currently have under contract, we find ourselves unable to continue to provide you with a proposal for your up coming construction project,



Sincerely
XYZ

I'm half temped to go conventional

Noooo-o-o-o-o-o-o! That's the frustration talking. Don't sell your desire to have an efficient system short because of it. Where do you live?

I live in New Jersey

I attepted to go with a DX unit at first, but the only quote I could get was Earthlinked, and the guy was almost 100 miles away, needless to say his quote was over 85 grand, and he really didnt want to do it either.
Thats when I got into a more standard type of geothermal.

I've taken several steps to get my 1890 house up to standards, and honestly this is the one time I will be able to make this many changes.

we are spray foaming the first inch, we are doing as much energy star windows, appliances, etc. we are considering solar as well, but a shade analysis will have to be determined after the new roof is on for an accurate count, but i have all roof penetrations on the north side in anticipation of such a project.

in other words I have been concentrating alot of my time and energy to make this project go smooth, and have an energy efficient house. Right now we have leaky windows, drafts, etc. and the electric bills reflect that.

I think that energy efficiency is always the best starting point for major renos.

Do you have to do vertical ground loops or is horizontal a possibility? If you have to do vertical and you are sold on geo, then I'd take a few more steps back toward trying to rehab any of the 8 contractors you talked to. If you can do horizontal, then you might take a few more steps toward a partial DIY using a McQuay unit or something like that.

New Jersey has pretty variable climate. Have you fully considered a new high-efficiency air source heat pump for your location? It would preclude some of the geo issues.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Feb 2012 11:52 AM
If you can do horizontal, then you might take a few more steps toward a partial DIY using a McQuay unit or something like that.

ICF, you did not disclose your geothermal experience, McQuay experience, or loop experience (but provide advise on these topics.)  Have you gained newfound experience in these areas?

Lets go back to the beginning. You have a manual J load, what size did all suggest?

DJV,
You obviously have spent the time to educate yourself, and if you have a wet end contractor lined up, my advice is to stop talking and get scheduling. ICF also has a well documented history of not ever installing a geothermal system just as I do not ever play with insulated concrete.
Eric